Interesting minor league pitching move and two names to remember: Pryor and Capps

[clarknova]

It was announced this morning that the Mariners have demoted AAA Tacoma Rainiers pitcher Mauricio Robles to AA and promoted AA Jackson Generals relief pitcher Stephen Pryor to AAA, effectively swapping them out.

Robles has been terrible. I remember watching him pitch in a Rainiers playoff game at Safeco a couple years ago and I was shocked at how mediocre he looked. He was supposed to be one of, if not THE best pitching prospect in the minors for us. To me, if I squinted, I saw Ian Snell on the mound. Sounds like he got hurt last year and has absolutely lost the strike zone. He has an ERA over 9 and has walked 21 batters in 31 innings, hit two, and given up 4 homers. He's on the 40 man roster and needs to get things figured out quickly to avoid becoming an afterthought.

Pryor on the other hand has been nothing short of electric. Barring some sort of fluke, expect to see him pitching in Seattle sooner than later. Pryor was also injured in 2011 but has responded with a 1.12 ERA over 16 innings in 11 games he has a 13.5 K/9 ratio and has yielded only 5 walks and 7 total hits in those 16 innings.
He was a 5th round draft pick in 2010, a relative unknown at the time and another example of the Tom McNamara stud finding machine (Taijaun who?). he's a 6'4" 245 lb. right hander that throws a fastball, slider, cutter combo. He uses the cutter as his "out pitch", but his calling card will be that fast ball that regularly sits in the mid to high 90's, (94-97 mph) and has and will touch triple digits on occasion.
He's got closer of the future written all over him, along with another prospect- former fellow Jackson General Carter Capps who throws an even faster fastball (sits 95-99 mph, for real.), but Pryor seems to (currently) have the edge in control and getting left handers out. The bigger knock on Capps are those struggles with lefties. Right handed hitters are almost helpless against him. If he could develop a breaking pitch to get left handed hitters out we'd be talking about a "big four" and he'd be getting serious consideration as a starter.

The "big three" get, rightfully, most of the press and hype, but we have some seriously nasty bullpen arms down on the farm. If Capps and Pryor continue to progress we could have an unworldly bullpen. We just need a dominant lefty and it's Atlanta Braves-like potential. I know many are reluctant to deal away Brandon League, but fear not... Help is on the way.

I think Wilhelmsen could keep that seat warm after a League trade, we bring Pryor up and let Capps work a bit... Things are going to start coming together quickly in the pen. I know Erasmo Ramirez was sent down to get stretched out as a starter, but until I see something new I'm not seeing it with that guy.

The future of the rotation is certainly bright, but don't sleep on these relievers.

[Igoe4Mariners]

Good post. Have heard many good things about Capps. He's nasty. Appears Pryor is right there in terms of stuff and better with control.

Oh yeah, that Robles kid. He was supposed to be "the man" in the Washburn trade. I guess that devastating fastball-change combo he had went awry. It's very disappointing.

Regarding Ramirez, I was actually impressed with his stuff. 93-95 on the fastball and a good curve.....just needs to work on his change up and location. I think he was overthrowing a bit instead of just trying to pitch. Remember how bad Wilhelmsen looked at the beginning of his career last year? He found his location, and now he's dominant.

And Joseph, it may be time to update the prospect "Building to the future" minor league stats on the right side of the page. We've got Robles (who is stinking) and Liddi (who is in the league). I'd add Hultzen, Paxton, Capps, and Peguero (JK on that one). Maybe Brad Miller. Or maybe I can just add it myself since I'm an administrator :)

[JosephC]

Great post, thanks for the update! I read that Pryor always had the upside, but had worked on some of his pitching mechanics and it paid big dividends.
Apparently Pryor is tall and good looking... see here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PDt1EqAIho

So McNamara is doing a hell of a job with the arms, but who is responsible for the bats?

[clarknova]

Regarding Ramirez, I was actually impressed with his stuff. 93-95 on the fastball and a good curve.....just needs to work on his change up and location. I think he was overthrowing a bit instead of just trying to pitch. Remember how bad Wilhelmsen looked at the beginning of his career last year? He found his location, and now he's dominant.

Yeah, you're right. Process over results. He certainly has stuff, and one thing I also like is his mound presence. He's not at all intimidated. The downside to that is that if he's too self assured, that may account for some of the control issues. To me, one of the biggest problems was throwing that gas straight down the middle of the plate. That might work in the PCL, but you need to pitch a little smarter in the majors. Like I said, I'll wait and see, but I'm thus far skeptical.

[Igoe4Mariners]

Yeah, you're right. Process over results. He certainly has stuff, and one thing I also like is his mound presence. He's not at all intimidated. The downside to that is that if he's too self assured, that may account for some of the control issues. To me, one of the biggest problems was throwing that gas straight down the middle of the plate. That might work in the PCL, but you need to pitch a little smarter in the majors. Like I said, I'll wait and see, but I'm thus far skeptical.

I noticed that about him too. It's pretty amazing he packs that much punch with how little he is.

Maybe having him start out as a starter will help relax him a bit and he can pitch instead of just throw as hard as he can.

[Igoe4Mariners]

Btw, Capps is from Kinston, NC which is like 30 minutes away from my house.

Just thought I'd throw that out there...

[clarknova]

So McNamara is doing a hell of a job with the arms, but who is responsible for the bats?

Drafted? Dustin Ackley, Kyle Seager, Vinnie Catricala, Nick Franklin, and Brad Miller were all drafted by McNamara. Go back to the year before he started and have a look at the top young bats in the system*. Night and day.

*I couldn't resist. Top hitting prospects and young hitters for the Mariners before the Jack Z administration (2008) in no particular order:

1. Jeff Clement
2. Wladimir Balentien
3. Carlos Triunfel
4. Michael Saunders
5. Mike Morse
6. Jeremy Reed
7. Willie Bloomquist
8. Luis Valbuena
5. Matt Tuiasosopo

The best of that group is what? Mike Morse and Michael Saunders, or maybe Willie Baseball? Freaking yuck!

IMO: Fair criticism of current regime: Not great at evaluating veteran free agent talent. But, credit where it's due- they might well be when all is said and done the best drafting team top to bottom in baseball. They've had three drafts. Not enough time for it to really start to pay off, but it's coming. When more of these guys start to play in the major leagues, then we will really see how good they are.

[clarknova]

I just checked the Baseball Prospectus organizational rankings (best farm systems) from 2008: Seattle Mariners ranked 23rd. This year: 7th. I don't have time to do the research (I know, shocking), but I would guess that turn around is almost unprecedented. 3 drafts and they jumped up 16 spots. That's just plain amazing, and it's one of the main reasons I'm still so interested in the team and continue to support the current front office (from the GM down ONLY).

[Mariners51]

While I'm enthused with all the young talent they're bringing in, I still wish the front office would've signed one impact FA bat to take the load off the young guys. I think part of the reason we see guys like Ackley and Smoak pressing are because they're counted on to carry the entire load. The only decent vet we have is Ichiro and he can only hit so many singles. If there was a decent middle of the order bat to take some pressure off, I think we'd be seeing even more results than we are now with the sticks.

[clarknova]

While I'm enthused with all the young talent they're bringing in, I still wish the front office would've signed one impact FA bat to take the load off the young guys. I think part of the reason we see guys like Ackley and Smoak pressing are because they're counted on to carry the entire load. The only decent vet we have is Ichiro and he can only hit so many singles. If there was a decent middle of the order bat to take some pressure off, I think we'd be seeing even more results than we are now with the sticks.

This is something I've heard a read a lot of. I guess I'm genuinely curious to know specifically who we should have picked up. I mean, don't get me wrong- I'm frustrated too, but I look at it more like the young bats are going to be maddeningly streaky. That's the nature of the beast. Veterans can make adjustments on the fly, these kids need time to develop that. I don't know that I agree on Smoak and Ackley pressing due to a lack of veteran line up presence. How then would you explain Seager and Montero's success? Ackley is an awesome pure hitter and hit better in a weaker line up last year. It doesn't work with that logic. Smoak may simply not be who everyone thought he could be. It just happens, but I don't think he's a better hitter with a veteran bat in the line up. Just my opinion.

I seriously want to know though, from anyone- take into account their position and what it would mean for the team and what free agent hitter should the Mariners have picked up in the off season? Look at the contract they got and tell me it's a smart move. Honestly, outside of Prince Fielder, I can't think of anyone. What you have to do is take their production, subtract the production from the replaced player and tell me how many more wins we'd have with that guy in the line up.

Michael Cuddyer? Two of his three homers have been at home in Colorado and his average is almost 50 ticks lower on the road. He's also right handed and has hit more than 24 home runs only once in his career. The contract we would have had to beat: 3 years, $30 million. He's an outfielder. (F that IMO).

Jason Kubel? Outfielder, lefty, Ok. Hitting .284 with 3 home runs, 12 RBIs. 2 years, $15 million. That's not too bad. He'd proably hit around .270 and maybe hit 20 home runs. This season, while hitting at a much lower average due mostly in part to Chone Figgins and weighed down by Mike Carp's low average due to so few games played- Left fielders have hit the same number of home runs and have the same number of RBIs, and THAT number is weighed down by Casper Wells who has driven in 1 run in 28 ABs. He'd be locked in next year as well, taking ABs away from outfield prospects, and limiting us in free agency next season at a premium power position.

If there are others, I'd like to know, honestly. I just don't see how the Mariners front office are so inept for allowing these young kids to struggle and grow instead of plugging these others in who would not improve our chances at a playoff run this year at all, and would limit the team financially and take away flexibility. These are guys you pick up when you're close, not the third best team talent-wise in the division, if that. They might mean a win or two at best. Fielder would have made total sense at the right price. And the fact that they were willing to throw a pretty huge chunk of money at the idea shows you they agreed, it just got retarded expensive and they (SMARTLY) didn't go there. He would have been the long term solution.

I get it. The team is not great, and that sucks, but what are these scenarios to spend money the team turned down that equal they don't care about winning? If it were letting Felix walk, or something like that, I'd be on the same boat... But Kubel? Cuddyer? Who Willingham? I hear the mentoring aspect, but does Michael Cuddyer make the difference between Dustin Ackley becoming Wade Boggs or not? I don't think so at all.

Am I missing something? Honestly curious, because the backlash is sort of baffling to me.

[JosephC]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, we should have taken Ramos instead of Smoak. That's one mistake.

[clarknova]

Well, I think if we go back to the thread where the trade was announced, nobody was bummed out to get Justin Smoak. With the information available at the time I think the Smoak trade made the most sense. The Rangers did NOT want to deal him, and it was only with a "he's in the deal, or we're going back to New York" tactic did they pry him away from them. In hindsight, yeah, but I don't know that you can blame them now for not knowing Smoak would (thus far) flop when most experts and talent evaluators saw him as a future star.

That was a trade from 2010 too. What about this last off season? Are you upset about what the team did or didn't do? If you are, what specifically is the move you're upset that they didn't do?

I mean, I'm bummed out about Chone Figgins, that was a total mistake, but at the time I was pretty happy to have the guy as a Mariner. Olivo was different. I was bummed out when they signed him.

[JosephC]

You gotta ask yourself, did his .220 average with the rangers strike any concern? Should it have? Meanwhile if I remember correctly, in small sample sizes, Ramos had hit .300.
I know, I know, not much to go on. Indeed, everyone thought Smoak would be the big bat of the year.

I was more going on where are the bats we should have from drafts, not trades. But since you begged the question, I felt this was a mistake that "could" have been avoided from sample sizes. And yes, I didn't mind taking Smoak (although I still liked Montero and Ramos more), and I didn't mind taking Figgins. In fact, Figgins seemed like a great grab at the time. I was pretty happy with Olivo, but that was a minor bust.

Why can't we draft any good bats? It just shouldn't be this hard. It's always pitchers.

[clarknova]

I don't think it struck any concern, and honestly I don't think it should have either. His very first time in the bigs? Talent evaluators are going to look at skills and tools to project these hitters into what they could be. If I went back in time and I was asked would I rather have Wilson Ramos or Justin Smoak long term given the information available at the time I would have taken Smoak in a heartbeat. I think they took the best deal available at the time with the information available, but I also think the Montero trade was comparable due to the piece the trade was built around. I think recent performances have skewed how we look at it, but going back to the top prospect lists in 2010- just glancing at MLB.com's- Justin Smoak was #9 in baseball. Montero was #19. Ramos was not in the top 50.

I guess my question was more in terms of this last off season, and free agency. I've just heard and read from a lot of different places including on this forum some verbal grenades launched at the front office regarding monetary inaction in the off season. I'm wondering from the people that think the front office isn't spending because they don't care enough about winning... Sort of, what specifically didn't they do that they should have done, that would have been a smart move, and that wouldn't have been spending money just to show people they mean to?

I'm not implying this front office is free of mistakes. They've made some moves I didn't like at all- Namely the Brandons trade, and the Fister deal. Also Olivo, I hated that. Figgins was a mistake. Kotchman, etc. Every front office does it. It's the nature of baseball. I'm wondering about the criticism for last offseason.

Regarding drafting, I think they've done pretty well drafting good bats. I think they've done better at pitchers, but they've also been pretty good at getting some bats. The one thing I think they're lacking is legit 30+ home run power bats, but that's pretty much it. I think Ackley, Seager, Catricala, and Franklin are all good hitters, and I think they've acquired some potential others in the draft and via trade. Things are looking WAY up, it's just that the pitching is looking more so because we have almost unarguably the best threesome of pitching prospects in MLB. They draft the best player they can at the draft spot regardless of position. They're not trying not to get hitters, and again, I think they're actually doing pretty good at that too.

[clarknova]

I want to emphasize that I'm not being snarky. I'm just curious because if I'm wrong, I want to know what I'm missing. Or, if it's just born from frustration etc.

[JosephC]

Well if we weren't going to spend payroll last year, then tell me who you think we should pick up this year? Or the next year? We're going to always get outbid if you are NOT willing to pay. Economics and a good life saying is, in general, you get what you pay for. Our front office should do just what you stated above, they should spend money just to show people they mean to. If you reduce the payroll when you are losing 90+ games, then how can we as fans take the team seriously? Show us something. I agree with Baker, in 5 years this team will have a different ownership. The current ownership must be preparing for a sale, that's the only reason they would take a clausius clapeyron (Chem E word for dumping a crap) on us fans and not worry about the ramifications.

If you have a free agent you recommend they go after, please share. Because I bet if they are Pujols or Fielder talent, they will be even MORE expensive in the following years. This year we didn't have to outbid the Stankees. It's easy to say who should have they gone after... but when Ichiro walks after this year, do we just drop the payroll another $20 mill a year? Or do we MAN up and get some talent in here?

[clarknova]

Huh... Well, It sounds like you're asking my question back to me. Who do I think we should have gone after if not Fielder? As a hitter? Pretty much nobody. I totally disagree with spending money for the sake of it. That's just bad business and picking up players that don't make the team better doesn't fix anything. Wins do. Fielder would have helped the team win and do so long term. I could see the team having different ownership in 5 years, sure. I guess what I'm asking is when you say show us something, what are you saying? Specifically. Who? I'm curious. I'm not saying don't go after anyone ever. I'm saying don't go after band aids to put on a severed limb. But, again, that's only my opinion. Remember when the Mariners showed us stuff and threw money around seemingly for the sake of it? That sucked ass, and it set the team back a decade. It was a horrible idea.

How is the team taking a crap on us? I just don't see that. I don't think it is that easy to say who they should have gone after. That's what I'm struggling with understanding. I can dig into next season's free agents if you want, but there will always be richer teams ready to outbid the bottom 24. If not outspending way richer teams means they are pooping on our heads... You're probably going to be pretty disappointed, and what are the chances that we get new ownership and they just start buying up all the free agents? Are we really holding out hope that the team sells and we start spending $150 million a year and be up there with New York, Boston, Chicago, and Philadelphia or we're getting shat upon? Most teams don't do that, and it doesn't equate to greatness either. I think the M's will do both. But, again. It doesn't make any sense to spend a crap ton of money now if it doesn't mean wins because wins is the only way to sell enough tickets to make any difference.

[clarknova]

I totally disagree

Respectfully. I'm not trying to argue. I'm just asking openly to all to give me some further info on the previously stated opinion.

[Mariners51]

This is something I've heard a read a lot of. I guess I'm genuinely curious to know specifically who we should have picked up. I mean, don't get me wrong- I'm frustrated too, but I look at it more like the young bats are going to be maddeningly streaky. That's the nature of the beast. Veterans can make adjustments on the fly, these kids need time to develop that. I don't know that I agree on Smoak and Ackley pressing due to a lack of veteran line up presence. How then would you explain Seager and Montero's success? Ackley is an awesome pure hitter and hit better in a weaker line up last year. It doesn't work with that logic. Smoak may simply not be who everyone thought he could be. It just happens, but I don't think he's a better hitter with a veteran bat in the line up. Just my opinion.

I seriously want to know though, from anyone- take into account their position and what it would mean for the team and what free agent hitter should the Mariners have picked up in the off season? Look at the contract they got and tell me it's a smart move. Honestly, outside of Prince Fielder, I can't think of anyone. What you have to do is take their production, subtract the production from the replaced player and tell me how many more wins we'd have with that guy in the line up.

Michael Cuddyer? Two of his three homers have been at home in Colorado and his average is almost 50 ticks lower on the road. He's also right handed and has hit more than 24 home runs only once in his career. The contract we would have had to beat: 3 years, $30 million. He's an outfielder. (F that IMO).

Jason Kubel? Outfielder, lefty, Ok. Hitting .284 with 3 home runs, 12 RBIs. 2 years, $15 million. That's not too bad. He'd proably hit around .270 and maybe hit 20 home runs. This season, while hitting at a much lower average due mostly in part to Chone Figgins and weighed down by Mike Carp's low average due to so few games played- Left fielders have hit the same number of home runs and have the same number of RBIs, and THAT number is weighed down by Casper Wells who has driven in 1 run in 28 ABs. He'd be locked in next year as well, taking ABs away from outfield prospects, and limiting us in free agency next season at a premium power position.

If there are others, I'd like to know, honestly. I just don't see how the Mariners front office are so inept for allowing these young kids to struggle and grow instead of plugging these others in who would not improve our chances at a playoff run this year at all, and would limit the team financially and take away flexibility. These are guys you pick up when you're close, not the third best team talent-wise in the division, if that. They might mean a win or two at best. Fielder would have made total sense at the right price. And the fact that they were willing to throw a pretty huge chunk of money at the idea shows you they agreed, it just got retarded expensive and they (SMARTLY) didn't go there. He would have been the long term solution.

I get it. The team is not great, and that sucks, but what are these scenarios to spend money the team turned down that equal they don't care about winning? If it were letting Felix walk, or something like that, I'd be on the same boat... But Kubel? Cuddyer? Who Willingham? I hear the mentoring aspect, but does Michael Cuddyer make the difference between Dustin Ackley becoming Wade Boggs or not? I don't think so at all.

Am I missing something? Honestly curious, because the backlash is sort of baffling to me.

Willingham would not have been a bad add to stick in the 4 and 5 spot. I still feel like you're undervaluing the pressure aspect. You stick Willingham in there, and at least you have some protection for Smoak/Ackley/whoever. And even though Montero and Seager are hitting well, I have seen them struggle at times and be a little too aggressive at the plate (note that they haven't walked but a combined five times) though I'm not complaining with the current results. We've seen the same approach from Ackley and Smoak and it hasn't worked out as well for them.

And I didn't just mean through free agency either. One guy I was really intrigued by who was on the trading block was B.J. Upton. Not the greatest player in the world, but a good base runner, can hit for power at times, and is a good defender. Not to mention Guti has been a total fail health-wise, and Saunders, well, he's just Saunders. I don't know if that was a realistic option or what the Rays were asking for, but he would've been a nice piece, and a guy that could've went along with our future plans.

Again, I'm not saying the FO sucks or anything like that, and maybe there really were no options out there like you said and they did the right thing by holding off.

[JosephC]

No, I like this discussion, no harm here.

Clarknova, in my opinion, the team has been taking a crap on us for nearly the last decade. That's the reason the majority of the fans want to see the ownership gone. You don't have to win, but you have to try. From trading away a fan favorite (see Jamie Moyer), trying to drive out the sonics from the sodo district, giving us bags of dirt when leaving the ball game ;), going to this new "ticket pricing" scheme (which by the way sucks monkey balls, I have stories about that), dropping payroll when the team is losing 90+ games, the owner never showing up in Japan to the game, Wakamatsu was fired, no sign of Chuck or Howard at the conference, announcing proudly in 2010 winter meetings that they won't drop payroll, it's just now how you run a ballclub. Honestly, how can any of us be impressed?

To answer your question, if I was Z and had the salary to do so, I would have heavily persued one of either Fielder or Pujols and stayed in the running until the end. If it gets to a point where either Pujols or Fielder clearly do not want to come to Seattle, then that's that. But I see no proof of the team even trying to get Fielder or Pujols. It was a way for the team to look like they tried to improve the club, but really, they just throw us another miserable season. I can almost guarantee you it was not Z who jumped the wagon here. Look higher.

Since we all here want to win within the next 5 years, what FA's do we go after once our payroll is at the bottom of the ocean? Surley we'll drop some of Ichiro's payroll in never-never land too.

[clarknova]

Willingham would not have been a bad add to stick in the 4 and 5 spot. I still feel like you're undervaluing the pressure aspect. You stick Willingham in there, and at least you have some protection for Smoak/Ackley/whoever. And even though Montero and Seager are hitting well, I have seen them struggle at times and be a little too aggressive at the plate (note that they haven't walked but a combined five times) though I'm not complaining with the current results. We've seen the same approach from Ackley and Smoak and it hasn't worked out as well for them.

And I didn't just mean through free agency either. One guy I was really intrigued by who was on the trading block was B.J. Upton. Not the greatest player in the world, but a good base runner, can hit for power at times, and is a good defender. Not to mention Guti has been a total fail health-wise, and Saunders, well, he's just Saunders. I don't know if that was a realistic option or what the Rays were asking for, but he would've been a nice piece, and a guy that could've went along with our future plans.

Again, I'm not saying the FO sucks or anything like that, and maybe there really were no options out there like you said and they did the right thing by holding off.

I could very well be undervaluing the pressure aspect, but it's one of those intangible things. How do you measure it? I used to firmly believe in line up protection, but I've seen some data that suggests it might be a myth. I'm not saying you're overvaluing it, but maybe a little. I guess I'm saying, where as I think it might help to a certain extent... How much REALLY could we expect Josh Willingham in the line up to effect Justin Smoak or Dustin Ackley? I mean, he's on the Twins... He doesn't seem to be helping their young players much. They're in a much worse position than we are. Again, I could be wrong, that's just my take. I guess what I'm getting at is, if there is a positive effect that he could have on the performance of the team, how much closer would they be to being a winning team? Not much at all. I'd rather see a chance for Vinnie Catricala to play some left field over Willingham for three years. I'd rather they spend that money on a free agent or on a trade to cover a big contract for a serious upgrade.

Upton is an intriguing name if Guti can't pull it off, for sure. I wouldn't mind that too much. I wouldn't want to give up too much for him. I'd give up a lot for his brother though! The only thing that would deter me would be the power. We really need power.

I know you didn't say the FO sucks (ownership does though... I'm over Chuck and Howard), I just hear that a lot and am a staunch defender of Jack Z still because he's done so much to make this team better for the future. And one thing was not burning money. I'd rather they save those dollars for a championship caliber player.

[JosephC]

Well we can't argue this clarknova, but I think if Z had the money, he would have spent* (why'd I type spended? wth) it. That's probably where we see things different on this topic.

[clarknova]

No, I like this discussion, no harm here.

Clarknova, in my opinion, the team has been taking a crap on us for nearly the last decade. That's the reason the majority of the fans want to see the ownership gone. You don't have to win, but you have to try. From trading away a fan favorite (see Jamie Moyer), trying to drive out the sonics from the sodo district, giving us bags of dirt when leaving the ball game , going to this new "ticket pricing" scheme (which by the way sucks monkey balls, I have stories about that), dropping payroll when the team is losing 90+ games, the owner never showing up in Japan to the game, Wakamatsu was fired, no sign of Chuck or Howard at the conference, it's just now how you run a ballclub, announcing proudly in 2010 winter meetings that they won't drop payroll. Honestly, how can any of us be impressed?

To answer your question, if I was Z and had the salary to do so, I would have heavily persued one of either Fielder or Pujols and stayed in the running until the end. If it gets to a point where either Pujols or Fielder clearly do not want to come to Seattle, then that's that. But I see no proof of the team even trying to get Fielder or Pujols. It was a way for the team to look like they tried to improve the club, but really, they just throw us another miserable season. I can almost guarantee you it was not Z who jumped the wagon here. Look higher.

Since we all here want to win within the next 5 years, what FA's do we go after once our payroll is at the bottom of the ocean? Surley we'll drop some of Ichiro's payroll in never-never land too.

lol, I'm just sensitive about coming off argumentative (it's a new leaf). If everyone could just infer The Beaver from Leave it to Beaver's voice in all my posts, I think that would help too.

Hey, I'm with you on Chuck and Howard. It took a while, but trying to block Chris Hansen in SODO was the straw that broke the camel's back. DO NOT STEP. It's a sensitive issue for me. There's no reason you should be impressed with losing. None at all. I'm not.

I would have gone after Fielder. I might have spent a little more than the Mariners were willing to spend, but they were. By all accounts including Prince Fielder himself, the Mariners at least tried. They just weren't willing to spend 200 million. On anyone. So, I guess the point really is, how much payroll is enough? $150 million? These young players are going to start getting older. How many $17+ million per year contracts can any payroll hold? I'm not saying never spend. I'm saying spend when it's prudent and don't overspend because you would effectively be taking a crap on your own head. If you don't want to keep Felix, or let Montero walk when his contract is up, or be forced to trade him or any of the young pitchers, you can't get locked up in Pujols like contracts. That contract is AWEFUL. I would never do that deal. Yuck. They will spend more, they have made that clear, but they're trying to be smart with it because we've all been through what it's like when you're not. I appreciate that because I remember so vividly what it was like when we did have a giant payroll. It wasn't that long ago that we were at the top of baseball in spending. Remember? We freaking sucked ass.

[clarknova]

I think if the Mariners had unlimited payroll Jack would definitely have gone after Fielder. They haven't said how much their limit was, but it was probably more than $160 million dollars, so it's not like this year's payroll number was a limit of any kind, they were willing to spend a lot more, which means they will be again in the right situation. There were a lot of teams on Fielder this offseason, only one team was willing to go as high as the Tigers did.

[JosephC]

But if not Fielder, then who do you ever spend it on?

[clarknova]

Depends on the players available and their position. The only superstar bats available this off season were Fielder, Pujols, and an argument could be made for Beltran, I suppose. I'd be cool with Beltran, but he went to the defending champions. I think another thing that could be done is to spend it on a trade. I'm throwing this out there randomly, but with a new regime in Boston and a struggling team maybe offer some relief help and a package built around Paxton for Adrian Gonzalez. I'm not saying this is reasonable or plausible, just as an example of a way to pick up a superstar bat and take on the contract. Just something like that. Unfortunately, the 2012 free agent market looks bad unless you want starting pitching, which we really don't need due to the gaudy and long contracts that will be discussed.

Here are some bats I would seriously consider breaking out the checkbook for if they are not signed to extensions by their teams:

1. Josh Hamilton
2. Andre Ethier
3. Brian McCann
4. Mike Napoli

To a lesser extent-

1. B.J. Upton
2. David Wright

Some of these guys have club options and there are other hitters out there with club options. These guys are ones where the club options have the chance to not be picked up. Texas already has a $120 million payroll. Can they afford to pay both Hamilton and Napoli? Unlikely.

Don't get me wrong on guys like Cuddyer and Kubel, both of which the Mariners were linked to. Guys like that are great on short term deals, but the Mariners are wise to avoid long term contracts with second tier players when they are currently a forth tier team without them. That's all.

[clarknova]

Also, people talk about players not wanting to come to Seattle but it's just like fans. They follow winning. I remember in 2002 and afterwards, players were excited about coming to Seattle. We were good. I remember Miguel Tejada talking about thinking he was going to sign here and Carlos Delgado all ready to sign with Seattle, but got a better offer or something like that. Players were excited to sign with Seattle, and yes it's a vicious cycle, but when it comes around it will come around and players will want to sign here again. It's not because of the location, the flight time, the fences... It's about the crap team they feel they'd be on, and right now they'd be right. But, when we were a good team we built it the way we are now. All the stars were home grown, and the few that weren't were those Kubel and Cuddyer like players that Pat Gillick brought in to compliment the core of talent we had grown, guys like Bret Boone and John Olerud.

[Igoe4Mariners]

Ethier is rumored to be getting a Jayson Werth deal. Do you think the M's go there for a guy that really can't hit lefties? I suppose he could fill a much-needed corner OF spot (especially if the M's don't re-sign Ichiro).

B.J. Upton is another interesting piece, though he seemingly has bust written all over him. He's never really lived up to the hype and he seems to strike out a ton.

David Wright sucks and is gay as hell. Just listening to him talk pisses me off.

Brian McCann? I'd jizz everywhere if we got him, but he's got a club option I'm sure the Braves will pickup.

I think everyone in baseball is going to be looking to break the bank for Hamilton, and I don't see the M's being able to reach that high, like with Fielder.

[Nateyb24]

I would love to go after a guy like B.J Upton but i am not going to get to excited about FA this team won't even spend on average players i will start believing when they show me.

[clarknova]

David Wright sucks and is gay as hell. Just listening to him talk pisses me off.

Brian McCann? I'd jizz everywhere if we got him, but he's got a club option I'm sure the Braves will pickup.

I spit coffee on my desk when I read your comment on David Wright, and taken with your next comment might be some of the best analysis I've read in a long time.

Just some thoughts. I didn't know about Wright being gay as hell. Never mind in that case. Like I said, it's a fairly weak class. A lot of second tier guys, not a ton of star power. B.J. Upton could be a useful piece if Guti can't stay healthy and we can't sign Hamilton and there aren't ANY better options via trade or within the organization. Hence the "lesser extent". He's got very little power and sort of a crappy attitude.

I like Ethier. Problem with lefties or not. For Werth money? Ugh... That's an ugly contract. I'd have to think about it.

[clarknova]

I would love to go after a guy like B.J Upton but i am not going to get to excited about FA this team won't even spend on average players i will start believing when they show me.

That's totally fair.

[Igoe4Mariners]

I remember whatever year he was on the cover of MLB The Show, it'd be like "Hey guys, this is David Wright. Welcome to MLB The Show" on the startup screen and it pissed me off everytime. He said it in the most gayest way possible. And sure enough, I haven't bought another MLB The Show since.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFm-pS9FUkQ

[clarknova]

I know how it is. Sometimes I just hate guys because their faces piss me off. Garret Anderson was like that, regardless of team. He just looked so arrogant in the face. I just wanted to punch him in the neck whenever I saw him.

[Igoe4Mariners]

Kinda like how I feel about Eric Sogard now.

[clarknova]

Ah Sogard. Was it on here that I offered my theory on where Eric Sogard came from? I don't want to be redundant.

This is an awesome thread btw.

[TellItToTheDA]

http://cdn3.sbnation.com/fan_shot_images/251462/FeartheGlasses.jpg

[Igoe4Mariners]

Ah Sogard. Was it on here that I offered my theory on where Eric Sogard came from? I don't want to be redundant.

This is an awesome thread btw.

I honestly don't remember, but I must have missed it cuz I'm sure I'd remember it.

I'd love to hear it. lol.

[clarknova]

Damn it. I'm having a hell of a time loading pics... Just deleted my whole post. I'll try again later, it's very compelling.

[Igoe4Mariners]

Damn it. I'm having a hell of a time loading pics... Just deleted my whole post. I'll try again later, it's very compelling.

I'll wait patiently :)

[JosephC]

Depends on the players available and their position. The only superstar bats available this off season were Fielder, Pujols, and an argument could be made for Beltran, I suppose. I'd be cool with Beltran, but he went to the defending champions. I think another thing that could be done is to spend it on a trade. I'm throwing this out there randomly, but with a new regime in Boston and a struggling team maybe offer some relief help and a package built around Paxton for Adrian Gonzalez. I'm not saying this is reasonable or plausible, just as an example of a way to pick up a superstar bat and take on the contract. Just something like that. Unfortunately, the 2012 free agent market looks bad unless you want starting pitching, which we really don't need due to the gaudy and long contracts that will be discussed.

Here are some bats I would seriously consider breaking out the checkbook for if they are not signed to extensions by their teams:

1. Josh Hamilton
2. Andre Ethier
3. Brian McCann
4. Mike Napoli

To a lesser extent-

1. B.J. Upton
2. David Wright

Some of these guys have club options and there are other hitters out there with club options. These guys are ones where the club options have the chance to not be picked up. Texas already has a $120 million payroll. Can they afford to pay both Hamilton and Napoli? Unlikely.

Don't get me wrong on guys like Cuddyer and Kubel, both of which the Mariners were linked to. Guys like that are great on short term deals, but the Mariners are wise to avoid long term contracts with second tier players when they are currently a forth tier team without them. That's all.

Yes, yes, and yes for B.J. Upton, this guy is way underrated. I want to see him in an M's uniform right NOW!

[Igoe4Mariners]

To get things back on track.....Pryor made his AAA debut tonight. Scoreless inning. 0 hits, 2 ks, 0 walks.

[clarknova]

Also hit 99 mph on the radar gun.

[clarknova]

Listened to Jack Z on the postgame podcast from last night. He just got back from a road trip checking out potential draft picks and spent a couple days in Jackson to check out the talent first hand. He said he requested the manager pitch Pryor and Capps again because he only got to see them for a short time and wanted another chance to see them pitch, so they came out in back to back games and BOTH hit 100 mph. Also said Taijuan Walker hit 98. Sounds like it's clear that they all got put together so they can grow a camaraderie for when they're in the bigs together.

He's also pretty stoked on Francisco Martinez. Said he was a very important part of the Fister trade (he better be...).

[JosephC]

How has Martinez been looking in Jackson? Last I saw it wasn't extremely impressive numbers (but very good for a 21 year old). Can we expect to see him as a September callup?

[clarknova]

How has Martinez been looking in Jackson? Last I saw it wasn't extremely impressive numbers (but very good for a 21 year old). Can we expect to see him as a September callup?

Martinez has looked pretty good. He got off to a slowish start but has picked things up. The knock on him is that the power has yet to develop. He has yet to hit a home run this season (33 games) and hit only 10 last year in 124 games. I have contended that if he is to stick at 3rd and be the future there for the team, he has to develop that power that everyone says "will come". He can definitely hit, and is very athletic. His biggest strength right now is his speed. He's 6'2", 210 and apparently is a gazelle on the bases. Last year on the same team, in the same number of games he had 3 homers and hit .310. I would honestly be pretty surprised to see him in September, but if he continues to hit better and shows some pop it wouldn't surprise me to see him in Tacoma especially if Catricala figures it out and makes an appearance in September. Martinez has a ways to go, but he's got time.

Here is a summary of Stephen Pryor's AAA Tacoma debut from Alex Carson over at ProspectInsider.com:


Last night, right-handed flame throwing reliever Stephen Pryor ascended the mound in Triple-A Tacoma for the first time. While there was but a mere few thousand eyes on hand to see it there was little doubt amongst those viewing that they were seeing something pretty cool.

It's standard in the minors for starting pitchers not throwing that day to be in the stands charting. Sitting directly behind the plate and a row behind me were a couple Albuquerque Isotopes pitchers. In my short time attending games in Tacoma, one of my favorite things has been listening to these guys banter. They're regular guys having a good time watching a ballgame.

Pryor entered the game in the eighth inning with the Rainiers trailing the Isotopes 4-2. After a first pitch fastball to the hot-hitting Scott Van Slyke that registered 95 mph on everyone's guns, the chatter stopped. Then came a fastball at 96. Silence. The next two offerings hit 97. Still, nothing was said. After a fifth heater, Pryor delivered his sixth pitch and the batter swung through an 87 MPH slider.

All I heard was a "wow."

Up next was Jeff Baisley, the Isotopes designated hitter who is having a decent year in his own right. This at-bat ended much quicker with Pryor going 96-98-99 in a swing-foul-swing see-you-later strikeout.

"Whoa. Who is this guy?" the charters asked.

One of the Rainers (I believe it was Forrest Snow) also charting was kind enough to inform them of the kid's name.

Pryor was something of a late add to the M's draft board in 2010 when they took him in the fifth round. He was a college arm with a reliever-only label with some control concerns. Those concerns were raised again early on last season in A ball where he fanned 34 but walked 26 in 27 innings of work. After settling in, he was promoted to Double-A Jackson where that K/BB ratio vastly improved to 27/7 over 22.2 frames.

Beginning the current campaign back in Jackson, Pryor threw an even 16 innings. Of the 84 batters he faced, 24 turned right around and went back to the dugout while only five took a free pass.

Some believe Carter Capps is the reliever to really keep your eyes on, but for one night in Tacoma, they were all intently focused on Stephen Pryor.

Sweet.