Don Wakamatsu fired as Mariners manger

[TellItToTheDA]

This is really, really disappointing.

http://twitter.com/BrockandSalk/status/20729788652


Sources tell me Don Wakamatsu, Ty van Berkleo and Rick Adair have been let go from the Mariners.

[JosephC]

no way... this pisses the daylights out of me. How true is the source? Edit: Looks like a good source.

[TellItToTheDA]

Larry Stone confirms:


It's official: Wak, Adair , Van Burkleo and mental coach Steve Hecht fired. Darren Brown to be interim manager, Roger Hansen bench coach,


Carl Willis will be pitching coach

[clarknova]

The M's just got so much better with this move. Noticed they took "Believe Big" of their official website. Can't imagine why...

[JosephC]

Interesting post on Angelswin....

One day they are going to realize: STOP HIRING FORMER ANGELS

Bavasi
Washburn
Wakamatsu
Figgins
Kotchman
Spezio

[Igoe4Mariners]

Stupid move. This will set us back another 2-3 years at the least!

[JosephC]

Now the Sweeney move makes more sense. Remember that Sweeney signed with the M's in 2009 BECAUSE of Don Wakamatsu. This should have been writing on the wall, yet I failed to see it at the time. My guess is they told Sweeney that Wakamatsu's days were numbered and asked him if they should drop him on Waivers and he said "heck yeah, get me out of this h*ll hole".

[gskellig]

has there ever been a manager on their way to 100 loses that HASN'T been fired?
We all knew this would happen, they just better keep Z.

[JosephC]

Not that I can name off the top of my head, that's for sure. So on another note, what commercials do we have left that the Mariners can play? The golf one has Wakamatsu, he's gone. The Felix joking about Cliff's name, Cliff is gone. The bullpen commercial has Mark Lowe and Rick Adair in it, they're gone. The Ichiro one has Griffey in it, he's gone.

Wow, we can't play any of the commercials. Who wudda thunk?

[hamhead]

Guy just couldn't cut it . Needed Gonads for big calls and didn't have 'em

[gskellig]

We can play the hyphen one when Rowland-Smith gets off the DL!
yay...

At least we don't have it as bad as the Royals, their lineup is almost completely different than it was at the start of the season.

[TellItToTheDA]

Not that I can name off the top of my head, that's for sure. So on another note, what commercials do we have left that the Mariners can play? The golf one has Wakamatsu, he's gone. The Felix joking about Cliff's name, Cliff is gone. The bullpen commercial has Mark Lowe and Rick Adair in it, they're gone. The Ichiro one has Griffey in it, he's gone.

Wow, we can't play any of the commercials. Who wudda thunk?

Well, they've started playing this commercial from 2006 again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y1cwKmRO0s

[JosephC]

oh gosh. I hated that commercial.

[kiowaman]

Well my answer is simple. Why did it take so long? For the one that said it will set us back three years or so, are you kidding me? In all due respect! The problem is, Jack needs to go as well. He is the one that brought some of the clowns in like Bradley. He sure didn't do squat for us like Jack thought. Plus, I dont' care Milton had his second, and third, and fourth, chances in this league and he blew everyone several times to the point of getting canned last season by the Cubs basically. And yet Jack decided that he would do good for the M's? Please! Then the big move to bring in Lee! Jack had no interest I feel to keep him. We saw that in spring training. Lee said he didn't want to talk about it but yet it was Jack who actually made the statement first that..we don't talk contracts in spring training. I wonder why? Then to trade him to a team not only in our league but to a team in our division1 More brilliant moves! Then we had Snell who was a headcase in Pittsburg and continued in Seattle. Kotchman, had problems in Boston and he got him. If you are predicting a division title all because you won a couple games here and there last season that you shouldn't have maybe you should get players that are not a problem consistently.
Look Wak had to deal with Jack's pathetic trades. Jack takes the blame for the players he got Wak..nice..it really don't make a difference. My take is Jack caused a problem by having a dream that the old days of only needing pitching and defense to win is a dream. If you look at the good teams who are there most of the time they have big bats in their lineup as well. I dont' care if Safeco is built for pitching, the fact is that alot of homeruns are hit out of there, mostly by other teams. Why, because Jack didn't get any power! His continous grabbing of so called potential is also moves that can reach up and bite you in the butt! And it has with just about every deal Jack has done. So he needs to go. But then we would have to depend on Lincoln and Armstrong to deflate their egos and hire someone who actually has a proven track record in the majors of getting winning talent. Winning talent by great scouting. So far I haven't been impressed! As far as Wak goes, hey a team like Seattle right now has absolutely no leadership. Griff wasn't a leader, he was just riding it out and somewhere his brain was telling him that he still had it, but didn't have anything left. Wak had a small ball team and he rarely used it. If he had of maybe some of those close games we lost when we had runners at third and less than two outs would have been wins. His once in a blue moon of having bunts layed down to drive in runs or move runners is not the way to work it. Instead we saw bases loaded time and time again with no outs and Wak would just let three batters in a row go down. Did I say time and time again? Yes, and I don't care who is at the plate they need to be told to do it. Ichiro, Figgins or whoever in those situations have to get the sign to do something because alot of times, especially in Ichiro's case they would not lay down a bunt or something just soft enough to get the runner in whether they got out or not. Instead we saw way too many times of Ichiro pushing the ball to the left side instead of pulling the ball. YOu know the same thing that Lou got on him about when he first game to the M's from Japan! I know you get can hit the ball to left but can you pull the blankin thing! So nothing will change unless everyone on the team is treated the same. Nothing will change unless they get a manger who will not,..how do I say this clean? Hmmm something foot around. Someone will get it. They need a manager who will jump on everyone if they are not focused all the time and make mistakes. Not singles one guy out from across the dugout in front of his teammates but get on everyone. And we need a manager who will move Figgins to leadoff. He is hitting better than Ichiro now. He will take more walks when they are there, and after his horrid start he is doing much better but some dont's seem to know that it takes time to get the average up way high when you start out slow. Figgins hitting at .254 right now is great compared to his start because he has hit close to three hundred for the past several games where Ichiro has went down. Hey, we will see. Will the M's do what the O's did so far? Who knows. All I know some of the little league plays the O's were doing before Showwalter came in have went away and they are certainly playing better. Hopefully the M's will wake up and start playing like big leaguer's.

[TellItToTheDA]

Kiowaman, do you even believe anything you just wrote? Jack needs to go? Sorry, but that's absolutely ludicrous. You mention Milton Bradley. Well, we HAD to dump Carlos Silva and his ridiculous salary somehow. Even after everything that's happened this year, I'd still rather have Bradley, who, how soon we forget, was an all-star just 2 short years ago. You mention the Cliff Lee deal. So what if he went to the Rangers as a rental? We screwed them over by getting Justin Smoak (who has that elusive power, you speak of), Blake Beavan (The 17th Pick in the 2007 Draft), and Josh Leuke (who's absolutely tearing up AAA). I know you were sarcastically saying it was a brilliant move, but it actually was. You didn't even mention the trade for Franklin Gutierrez and Jason Vargas. But of course, you wouldn't mention those deals because they would gloss over your point of "JACK IS BAD AND HASN'T MADE A GOOD MOVE EVER!". Contrary to your belief, this team IS heading in the right direction, and the moves Zdurencik has made shows that.

[Nateyb24]

I don't want to come off as an ass here but am i the only Mariner fan that could care less that Wak got fired??

Now i know he wasn't given a talented team or anything but he was to quiet for me i don't care if he went all Lou Pinella but the guy looked bored in the dug out and would barely ever come out and argue strikes that were balls.

Don't get me wrong i think he deserved another year i just hope we get a guy like Joey Cora,Valentine theres a few others but we need to get someone who demands respect of the team and the GM. The writing was on the wall when Z didn't defend Wak in public when Figgins went on that tirade.

[JosephC]

Well one thing I did notice is that when Z was asked whether he would go after a more Lou Pinella type in his press conference, he did not say no, in fact, I think he implied he would by facial expressions. It will be interesting to see what happens.

[JosephC]

Via Shannon Drayer:

Felix - "Best coach I have had since Chavez," he said.

Ichiro - "It is the whole team's responsibility," he said at his locker. "It is not fair to say it is the manager's responsibility to take the blame. It is not. We are all responsible."

Chone Figgins - "It is never good to see someone lose their job. In baseball or in life, it is never a good thing."

Russell -"It's a tough day for a lot of guys in this clubhouse. But we have to move forward as professionals. That's what we do. Things like this happen. I don't want to read into everything, I haven't been here all year but I know that the man who was in that office yesterday and the man that was in there last year hadn't changed. Don had maintained a level of professionalism that you like in a major league manager. He prided himself on building relationships and having his guys go out there and compete and win ballgames. That didn't happen last year and Jack went out there and made what I am sure was a tough decision."

[TellItToTheDA]

Man, this team is really, really downtrodden after losing their manager:

http://twitter.com/StoneLarry/status/20768939998


Mariner players wheeled Daren Brown into shower room in a laundry cart after the game for a beer shower. Lots of whoops and laughter.

[Nateyb24]

Man, this team is really, really downtrodden after losing their manager:

http://twitter.com/StoneLarry/status/20768939998

Man they sure seem sad after losing there manager lol.

[TellItToTheDA]

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/mariners/2012581252_mariturmoil10.html


Among a multitude of issues Wakamatsu had to deal with, none had a more lasting impact than the sudden retirement of Ken Griffey Jr. From the moment Griffey left the team June 2, Wakamatsu and his staff lost part of the clubhouse and never really got it back.

Griffey's relationship with Wakamatsu soured soon after a May 10 newspaper story broke that the slugger had been sleeping in the clubhouse before an eighth-inning situation in which he could have been used as a pinch-hitter. The story cited two young players as sources, though Griffey is said to have initially believed Wakamatsu was the leak.

"Griffey thought it was Wak that ratted him out and he voiced it to Figgy (Chone Figgins), (Casey) Kotchman, (Jose) Lopez and Milton (Bradley)," a player who witnessed what took place in the clubhouse told The Seattle Times.

Griffey has declined to comment since retiring. Wakamatsu has vehemently denied being the source of the story, but that did him little good in a clubhouse where some players believed otherwise.

Sources have since said that Griffey no longer believes it was Wakamatsu who was the leak. But the damage was done.

Soon after the sleeping story, Wakamatsu met with Griffey to discuss his future playing time. Wakamatsu denies he ever pressed Griffey to retire, though a FOX Sports story — quoting anonymous sources — suggested he angered the slugger by doing exactly that.

The relationship between the two men deteriorated from there.

On the day Griffey retired — June 2, three weeks after the sleeping story — sources told The Times the reason he left was that he and Wakamatsu hadn't spoken for two weeks. The sources, who had spoken with Griffey by phone, say he was furious that Wakamatsu had not treated him with the respect due a veteran of his stature nor properly communicated the extent to which he'd be benched.

Some of those sources also said Griffey had vowed not to return to Safeco Field — either in an employment capacity or for a retirement ceremony — as long as Wakamatsu remained manager.

Wakamatsu confirmed, when asked, that he and Griffey had stopped speaking at least 10 days prior to his retirement. But Wakamatsu insisted he had chatted with Griffey about reducing his playing time.

Griffey has not spoken to Wakamatsu since leaving. He has spoken several times to team president Chuck Armstrong by phone.

In an interview Monday, Armstrong declined to comment on whether Griffey had ever expressed to him that he would not return as long as Wakamatsu was managing.

"I'm not going to respond to that," Armstrong said.

[Jared]

Alright, I don't understand this effing move at all. First off, there are six weeks left in the season. Why in God's name would you fire Wak now? To try and save your own ass, Zduriencik? Z-man is the guy that put this batting order together and we don't have a 2,3,4, and/or 5 hitter so what exactly is Wak supposed to do with that? There's a reason we're in the basement for all the batting categories: we have no one that can hit the ball outside of Ichiro and Gutierrez. This move is just so ridiculous to me. I have completely lost faith in our GM now, we might as well bring back Bavasi if this is the way Z is going to operate.

It seems to me that Wak was just an easy guy to throw the blame on, and Z booted him to save his own ass. He's passed thin ice with me, and they might as well kick his ass out of town too.

[clarknova]

Wow! A couple things I felt compelled to respond to:
1. Firing Jack Z now would be just about the stupidest thing they could possibly do. Monumentally stupid. Also, find me the quote from Jack that says he knew he was putting a winner on the field this year. Find me the quote from the Mariners front office that relates at all to pitching and defense alone wins championships. Seriously. Jack goes on and on and on about how we need big bats and can't afford them, how he knew we had massive offensive holes, but did the best he could to put a winner on the field. Judging his performance on the record of the ML team this year given what he was left with is like judging a president's performance a year and a half into their first term. Seriously, I get so sick of defending this position, but it's just ridiculous. GMs live and die by the on field performance. THEY CAN NOT PREDICT THE FUTURE. I would have laughed at anyone who predicted Carlos Silva would be the first pitcher to 10 wins in the NL and have an all star caliber first half. As far as his stupid trades... You really think that what we gave up for Lee wasn't worth it? You seriously believe that Jack brought in Lee knowing that we'd suck and he'd leave? Why? He secretly works for the Rangers? God, I'm sorry- that position is just so incredibly lame. I hate to say it, but people really need to pay more attention. He traded 3 prospects that wouldn't crack the top 25 in any decently run organization to take a flier on arguably the best pitcher in all of baseball. He then flipped half a season of that guy when he realized we DO NOT HAVE THE RESOURCES TO KEEP HIM for one of the top prospects in all of baseball and two top tier pitchers, one of which is absolutely dominating and showing big league closer potential. Yeah, what a retard.

The plan to take the M's to the world series from where they were a year and a half ago will take longer than this. Those who believe we took a step back are not paying attention to the minor league system. You should. It's exciting. We went from having perenially the worst minor league talent in all of baseball to the middle of the pack in a year and a half. That is, for those who know, almost unheard of. You can't hit on all of these guys, but some of them are going to be stars. The following is a concept that people need to understand: Without unlimited resources to buy talent, you have to grow it in house or trade for it. The only way to trade for value is to have value and the only way to have that is to develop your minor league system. The ONLY way. Take a look at successful teams that have lower payrolls and ask yourself how they got there... Or, don't. Make snap judgments based on the teams record, Casey Kotchman, Milton Bradley, Chone Figgins, and Russell Branyan, while totally ignoring Vargas, Fister, Guti, Aardsma, resigning Felix, trading garbage for Cliff Lee, totally revamping our minor league system without which we would have no hope of ever winning a world series.
I understand the need to point the finger when we suck this bad, but I think people are a little misdirected. What the hell are we supposed to do? Every GM gets a year and a half to win the world series or we fire them and get a new one? Jesus christ people. Jesus F'n christ!
I will cover this subject in a blog post. A much less exasperated blog post.
I'm sorry, normally I frown on ripping people for thinking differently, unless they come at me personally, but listening to the radio today and reading forums etc... I'm irritated (I mean INSPIRED!)

I ask those of you who think our GM is incompetent to tell me, given the information and facts available at the time, what Jack could have done better in the off season. What, Vlad? What about Griffey, who by all accounts was forced on to the team by Howard Lincoln who stated that Griffey wouldn't be a Mariner when he decided not to be and not before. What else? Jason Bay? Dump 15 to 18 million into one guy? We'd then be spending 54 million dollars a season on Jason Bay (who's NOT worth the coin), Felix, and Ichiro- Giving us what? 40 million for the rest of the entire team? 10 gone to Carlos Silva/Bradley. 5 to Jack Wilson. 5 to Lopez. That's what, 20 left? 9 to Cliff Lee. 11 million. Figgins, Guti, and you're out of money. Think about it. It makes sense if you think about it, and if I'm wrong about that- hit me up. Tell me where. This is not MLB 2K. You can only do what is possible in factual reality and you can not bend the space/time continuum.

2. The actual topic at hand. Firing Wak is pretty "meh" to me at this point. The Field Manager's role in wins and losses is pretty overstated. However, it appears as though he lost the confidence of his players to such a degree that I have never seen, and I do believe that the apathy it (Big baby Griff's exit) created had an almost measurable effect on the teams performance. Tough lesson for a young manager and a decent guy. It does seem like a bit of a sacrificial lamb situation, but all manager firings do. I'd think it's pretty rare that a manager gets fired and his players don't come out and say "yeah, it's not his fault we suck. It's not fair he got fired". The deal with Griffey was a cluster. Unpredictable vortex of negativity. It's a bummer, but we'll get another guy in there and hopefully he'll win some confidence and players will go out and want to get a hit, or turn a double play, or block a pitch, or run the bases, or take a walk for the guy. I do believe that the role of "atmosphere" in a clubhouse as it relates to wins is also overstated, but I tend to think that it's only overstated when you're stocked with talent, which we are not, but given time will be.

Jack Z never asked to be put on the pedestal he was put on by the blogosphere and media at large. I remember seeing him speak live and you could really sense that he knew we were not the team that the media was making us out to be. He repeatedly tried to quell the expectations and as everyone is giving him a standing O and there's a guy wearing a jersey with his name on it in the front row, he's standing up there reminding us that we need to be patient and almost delivering a "it might get worse before it gets better, but it WILL get better" address. I found it confusing at the time because I honestly thought we had a shot at the division this season (I sipped some of the media's Kool-Aid, just a bit), but it makes sense in retrospect. It was just funny that as I'm thinking we're almost to world series contention, the guy trying to convince me that not only are we not, but that we're not as good as we look (2009) is Jack Z himself.

Ok, end rant.

[JosephC]

Even more so,


Mariners pitcher Felix Hernandez erupted at Wakamatsu during a first-inning mound visit in Oakland on May 18. Television cameras caught the angry exchange and Hernandez was unavailable for comment afterward — though he later downplayed the episode.

I saw this incident and I thought I saw Felix say the F word, and this confirms what I thought. There was an exchange. Good thing Felix didn't make a bigger deal of this.

[Jared]

Yo Clarknova, if any of that was directed to me, please point out which of it was. I would like to clarify some shit asap.

[clarknova]

Jared,
No. Your post appeared after I clicked reply to thread. You posted as I was writing- I didn't read it until afterward. It was actually the post by kiowaman that sent me over the edge of reason (sorry kiowaman), but it had been brewing since Wak was fired just listening to the responses to it. Feel free to clarify some shit though.
I don't want to insinuate that it's not Ok to hold a certain position about the team per se, but it seems to me that there is a lot that is being overlooked due to utter frustration and that oversight is frustrating to me sometimes. Sorry if I came off like a dick, I just think the idea of ripping the firing of Wakamatsu after a year and a half and an impossible situation and then demanding that Jack Z be fired for the same thing is in-congruent.

[clarknova]

No throw down? I thought I was going to get taken to task there.
Seriously. I was ticked off when I posted that rant, but I stand by every thing I said. If anyone wants to contradict or debate any of those positions I welcome it with "the zeal of a challenger".



"I hope he arouses the fire that's dormant in the innermost recesses of my soul."
-Ichiro

[JosephC]

We're still giving the guy too much credit in my opinion. He's done great with the minor leagues, so maybe he should be director of minor league opperations. But he has failed pretty hard with the major league club this year. Byrnes was a fail, Kotchman was a fail, League for Morrow is one of those "who knows" right now, Bradley turned out to be a mucho sub-par hitter. Figgins is trying hard to prove his worth, but I still would never have signed him would I have known what he'd turn out to be.

That leaves a Guti extension, Felix extension and the Cliff Lee trade. Those were all positives in my book.

I was really hoping Jack Z would be the genius everyone (including myself) thought he was. This year has really proven he's just human trying to pick out of a bag like the rest of the GMs. For what he's done with the minor leagues, I'd say he's a keeper until another 100 loss season. Then let him go.

[Jared]

For one thing, I can't understand the timing. At all. There is six weeks left and we have a record that almost mirrors that of the Pittsburgh fudgin' Pirates. Why would he fire Wak now? What is the reasoning behind this? We're 25 games back and we have zero shot at doing anything positive this season at all. Hell, even Justin Smoak's numbers have dropped from the .230 average he had when he showed up.

Zduriencik picked up Cliff Lee was a really solid deal. Now, I'm beginning to wonder if he did anything at all or if he was in the right place at the right time when the Phillies GM decided to get Halladay but stock up on some youth at the same time (none of which was any good anyway, especially Aumont who is a major bust). Why do I doubt it? Well he also decided to trade Brandon Morrow who has an electric fastball and a solid slider, two things that can lead to a future 1 or 2 guy in the rotation. I liked Morrow even before his 1-hit, 17K performance with the Jays the other night. All I saw in him was the potential to be a consistent verson of AJ Burnett.

He also traded Morrow for Brandon League who sucks balls and was a lifelong piece of shit on the mound in Toronto. I live in Canada and all we get is Jays games. I've seen him for years now and he can throw some heat, that's it. He's nowhere near consistent and is not on the same level Morrow is and will be.

Also on the offseason list is Chone Figgins who appears to be completely afraid to swing the bat this year. If he doesn't get a walk, it's like he has no other chance of being productive with us. How often is Ichiro on base? Figgins can't even let Ichiro steal second and ground out to the second baseman so that 51 can advance to third with only one out. I don't even remember how much we're paying Figgins and I don't want to know at this point haha.

Wak had a major improvement last season and the team seemed to be a family last year. What could have possibly changed in the meantime that would have been Wak's fault? There has to be something he did because it can't just be all on the players, but it can't also all be on Wak either. The players raved about him last year. One huge reason why the dugout sucks this year is because they let Beltre walk. You guys are probably well aware of what he meant to the clubhouse and I think the M's could have held on to him, he seemed to really enjoy himself in Seattle. But Zduriencik decided that Figgins can play 400 positions and Jose Lopez couldn't possibly be that bad at third base, so he let Beltre go. Figgins also started some shit in the dugout because his batting average is basically John McDonald's and I understand why he's pissed off. At the same time, you have to suck it up and be a man about things. Starting shit in the dugout is not the way to go. And to be honest, I would have thrown this boob in the 9th spot as well. What has he done to remain in the 2 spot? Wak booted his ass to 9th and he damn well should have.

Another guy that Zduriencik brought is Milton Bradley. Yeah, you read that right. Milton Bradley! "Hey, maybe with Griffey and co. around, Bradley won't have a melt down and turn borderline suicidal and need to go to therapy halfway through the season. Right guys?" Like what is the Z-man thinking here? I agree that Silva was a tit here but come on, Milton Bradley? He's played for every MLB and AAA team in the last decade, obviously there's something wrong here. Hell even Jack Wilson talked about maybe retiring because he was having such a shitty season this year. Guess who brought him in?! Casey Kotchmann, come on down! You can bat .240 right? Let's put you in the three spot!

Bottom line, what is Wak supposed to do with this bunch of rejects? I've had no problem with the pitching staff at all. Felix almost has 10 losses now because the Oakland A's put up more runs than us, Lee was awesome when he was here and Vargas has been a pleasant surprise this year too. Which one of these guys will get traded to replace Mark Lowe next season? Maybe trade Dustin Ackley so we can get Octavio Dotel to help out David Aardsma? Fack sakes.

Bottom line to me is Wak took the fall for this, but I think both guys deserve a third of the credit each, along with the batting order. Zduriencik brought in what he could apparently, so he shouldn't be blamed? With that logic, why should Wak be blamed if nothing was brought in and they played exactly like we all knew they would? They're both guilty of underachieving. If one goes, the other one should too.

Sorry about the rant, but I'm just so damn sick of watching the Mariners suck while my brother's Red Sox win two World Series Championships. 2001 was a long ass time ago, and I want some damn October baseball in Seattle.

[clarknova]

JosephC, let me clarify some shit for you!!
Just kidding dude.

Agree on Kotchman = Fail. Figgy for me is incomplete, and nobody would have signed him if they'd known what he would do this year, that's one of my major points- I can't really blame Jack for Figgy suddenly playing like half the player he was. I actually see Brandon for Brandon as a fail until proven otherwise by Chavez. The ONLY reason, to me that Bradley can be considered a failure is that Silva was worth so much to the Cubs in the first half. It's not as if we signed him as a free agent. It was a mutual contract dump. A wing and a prayer, but Silva HAD to go. It would have been Bradley or a release of Silva. It wasn't a stupid move, it was trying to make something out of nothing. Griffey back = Fail (sorry griff).

Wins- Lee trade, Smoak/Beaven/Leuke trade, Felix extension, Guti trade and extension, Picking up Vargas, Fister, and other useful minor leaguers in trades, great looking drafts (Steven Baron excluded, so far). As far as Byrnes, I don't really see taking a flier on a guy for the major league minimum as a failure. If they'd paid any part of what Arizona was paying for him, then ok. He took some chances because he didn't have the money to do more, and they didn't work out. I don't know how another GM given the same situation and constraints could do a better job. I really believe that. I really do think he's a very smart guy and I don't think we need to toss him aside for a bad year in a rebuilding effort. I think that would be a disaster. Monumentally worse than the disaster we're all witnessing.

Not really that bad, all things (inherited contracts, a drop in payroll, horrible aweful minor league system) considered. I ask again, what was he supposed to do? What would have been better?

I think it sucks that Jack was anointed the second coming after Bavasi was canned. The expectations of him are way to high. I think that's what needs to go, not him. I think we have to be realistic and accept that 2012 might be the soonest we can be competitive. No matter who's at the helm.

[clarknova]

Jared-
That's what I'm talking about! Nice rant. Seriously, we can disagree, I love a good rant.

A couple points of rebuttal: The idea that Jack didn't do anything to get Cliff Lee sounds a bit like trying to come up with anything you can to take credit away. Let's see... Brandon for Brandon we totally agree on... Figgins- Again, seriously Figgins was awesome in Anaheim the last couple years, are we honestly going to blame Jack for him suddenly sucking and being a clubhouse cancer. That's Jacks fault? Is that why we're blaming him for everyone else on the team playing so far below their averages. Everyone on the team is under-performing and it's Jack's fault for not predicting that? Not being psychic is a pretty high standard for a decent GM IMO.
I understand that he's ultimately responsible for the on field performance, I just suggest that maybe the witch hunt atmosphere is more than a little over-reactive.

Tell me this then, who is a good GM? I want to hear who you guys would rather have at GM?

[clarknova]

I also believe that Wak did next to nothing to generate wins and would have next to no win value with a more talented roster. I just don't believe that Field Managers are that important in regards to actually winning. Just an opinion. Not that I support his firing. My first reaction was one of "how does this help us?" only because I don't really see the good in doing it. I think it creates more of an image of upheaval for other players around the league that we may want, and also seems to support insubordination which is NOT good for a sports team. However, firing Wak is about a thousand times better than firing Jack.

[Igoe4Mariners]

It took me 30 minutes to read page 3 of this thread. Awesome rants guys!

[JosephC]

Bill Smith is my favorite GM right now. I know he didn't get some good contracts signed, but he's done well. Also you have to love Dave Dombrowski.

[clarknova]

Ok, Joseph- Here's my point, and I am in no way denigrating your ideas for who good GMs are. I agree on both of those guys, but here's the thing for me- Bill Smith hasn't done much bad, and I agree he's a good one, but he also hasn't done much at all because he didn't have to. He took over the Twins at the very end of the 2007 season. The team he started with that he inherited was about 1,000 times more talented than the 2009 Seattle Mariners. The moves that he is best known for as of right now are being forced to trade Johan Santana (he was sort of in the same boat we were with Cliff Lee)- he got Carlos Gómez, Deolis Guerra, Kevin Mulvey and Philip Humber- the second biggest deal he made was to trade Matt Garza for Jason Bartlett for Delmon Young and Brendan Harris. I don't think you get more "win-win" than that. In the last offseason he grabbed Orlando Hudson and Jim Thome. Orlando Hudson has been, for all the terrible play we've seen from Donkey, only marginally better offensively than Figgins- Defensively it's not even close though. Thome has 15 homers and has basically had Russell Branyan's season, albeit Russell Branyan played most of this year in Cleveland. I guess what I'm trying to get at is, Bill Smith is a good GM, but he started out with the 2008 Twins. He has ML talent coming out his ass. We didn't even have 9 major league level players on our major league team! Had Bill Smith been hired instead of Jack Z. I don't think we're substantially better. In fact, unless it's a Twins organizational policy to generally not trade prospects, and not a Bill Smith policy, I'd say we'd be in an even worse position than we are now. I say these things only to point out that the torch and pitchfork approach to the M's front office that I've seen, heard, and read could perhaps use a little rationality.
I suppose I overreacted. Watching this team and then seeing that they've canned the manager after all that crap with Griffey, Snell, Figgins et. al., people talking about canning Jack was just like, really? I guess I'm just waiting for someone to get past ripping Kotchman's batting average and tell me what he could have done differently, specifically, that would have made this a good team in 2010. I mean if Jack lives with the responsibility of the performance of the players he acquires, and I know that he does, then he's an idiot if Figgins plays like Alfonso Soriano with no pop, when all indications were that he'd at least play to his averages? So, by that logic (and this is slippery slope, I know) if he had traded Jose Lopez for Albert Pujols and Albert Pujols hit .210 with 5 homers while Lopez won the triple crown (I'm aware this is beyond unrealistic, it's for dramatic effect), then Jack is an idiot for pulling off that trade?
For all Bill Bavasi's idiot moves, signing Adrian Beltre and even Richie Sexson were not among them. He went with the information available at the time. These guys generally played below expectations but those were, at the time, moves that I thought were awesome. What he sucked at, and the M's front office sucked at during his tenure were trading and drafting. I mean, horrible, horrible deals- the M's garnered a reputation among league executives for being idiotic and a willingness to blindly overpay. They perennially whiffed on almost every draft pick. Although it remains to be seen, I do not believe we have that problem anymore, and that is so unbelievably good. I know that it's painful to watch right now, but good things are taking place. Two of my favorite teams as far as admiration for the organizations are Minnesota and Tampa. Both of those teams did the same thing we're doing now. They drafted and stock piled young talent because they didn't have the payroll to buy your Matt Hollidays and Mark Teixeiras. That is the direction we are heading in my opinion. I'm excited for the future.
Dude, am I babbling again?! Damn it! Sorry, I know that's annoying, but hey! Check out the views on this thread. This is good stuff.
In closing! I understand the disdain, and I don't necessarily blame people for wanting a new GM per se, I'm just waiting for an explanation for that position that validates it in my mind, because to me- the only thing worse than getting rid of Jack would be to trade Felix, and I know given the team's record and performance that that is hard to understand.
Ok. End rant. I need to drink less coffee in the morning.

[clarknova]

Bottom line to me is Wak took the fall for this, but I think both guys deserve a third of the credit each, along with the batting order. Zduriencik brought in what he could apparently, so he shouldn't be blamed? With that logic, why should Wak be blamed if nothing was brought in and they played exactly like we all knew they would? They're both guilty of underachieving. If one goes, the other one should too.

I don't agree that Wak was fired for the team's record or the performance of the players that Jack brought in. I think he was fired because right or wrong (and I think wrong), the players did not have faith in him and disrespected him. If Jack Z deserves to be fired then what? By that logic we just fire a GM if he can't make a crappy team awesome immediately? Or what? We never fire any managers when the team sucks? Or, if we fire the manager then then GM has to be fired too because the team sucks? Respectfully disagree.
Again, I don't really agree with the firing of Wak, but I don't think it really hurts the team. Firing Jack would hurt the team. My opinion.

[Jared]

Jared-
That's what I'm talking about! Nice rant. Seriously, we can disagree, I love a good rant.

A couple points of rebuttal: The idea that Jack didn't do anything to get Cliff Lee sounds a bit like trying to come up with anything you can to take credit away. Let's see... Brandon for Brandon we totally agree on... Figgins- Again, seriously Figgins was awesome in Anaheim the last couple years, are we honestly going to blame Jack for him suddenly sucking and being a clubhouse cancer. That's Jacks fault? Is that why we're blaming him for everyone else on the team playing so far below their averages. Everyone on the team is under-performing and it's Jack's fault for not predicting that? Not being psychic is a pretty high standard for a decent GM IMO.
I understand that he's ultimately responsible for the on field performance, I just suggest that maybe the witch hunt atmosphere is more than a little over-reactive.

Tell me this then, who is a good GM? I want to hear who you guys would rather have at GM?

Haha maybe he couldn't have predicted Figgy would turn out to be poison, but the onus is still on Zduriencik. He's the guy that brought him in. Is it Wak's fault that the team is underacheiving too? Not entirely. He has absolutely nothing to work with. I'm not sticking up for Z because Wak gets canned for performing the same level at his job as Zduriencik is right now. Neither guy had much to work with, but they both still performed below average.

Look at Ron Gardenhire and company in Minnesota. Those guys put together solid teams year after year with virtually no pitching staff and little money to work with. They still manage to battle it out in the central and make it to the playoffs. Who fuckin cares that Z and Wak had a hard job ahead of them? Where is this sympathy going to get them? We need to make the effing playoffs sometime before I die and giving either guy an excuse is B.S. Zduriencik and Seattle's next skipper better learn to overachieve if we want to get anywhere because no one is going to feel sorry for them anymore. Everyone in M's nation is impatient and to get back to my point, Zduriencik is just as much to blame as Wakamatsu.

You also didn't touch up on the fact that there is only six weeks left in the season. It was only last week that Z publicly gave Wak a vote of confidence. It doesn't make any sense to fire him right now, especially after he backed him to the media. You know what that tells me? He has no idea what he is supposed to be doing. I don't want another 9 years of regular season baseball along with draft busts like Phillipe Aumont and Jeff Clement. He's get one year left with me, and he better figure something out quick.

[clarknova]

Haha maybe he couldn't have predicted Figgy would turn out to be poison, but the onus is still on Zduriencik. He's the guy that brought him in. Is it Wak's fault that the team is underacheiving too? Not entirely. He has absolutely nothing to work with. I'm not sticking up for Z because Wak gets canned for performing the same level at his job as Zduriencik is right now. Neither guy had much to work with, but they both still performed below average.

Look at Ron Gardenhire and company in Minnesota. Those guys put together solid teams year after year with virtually no pitching staff and little money to work with. They still manage to battle it out in the central and make it to the playoffs. Who fuckin cares that Z and Wak had a hard job ahead of them? Where is this sympathy going to get them? We need to make the effing playoffs sometime before I die and giving either guy an excuse is B.S. Zduriencik and Seattle's next skipper better learn to overachieve if we want to get anywhere because no one is going to feel sorry for them anymore. Everyone in M's nation is impatient and to get back to my point, Zduriencik is just as much to blame as Wakamatsu.

You also didn't touch up on the fact that there is only six weeks left in the season. It was only last week that Z publicly gave Wak a vote of confidence. It doesn't make any sense to fire him right now, especially after he backed him to the media. You know what that tells me? He has no idea what he is supposed to be doing. I don't want another 9 years of regular season baseball along with draft busts like Phillipe Aumont and Jeff Clement. He's get one year left with me, and he better figure something out quick.

Interesting counter points... I'd say it's pretty obvious that you're not sticking up for Jack Z, but thanks for clarifying that. I'm saying that if you're going to bitch about Wak getting fired, something I've said about 5 times that I don't agree with, then it doesn't make sense to demand that Jack be fired for the same reason.

Re: Minnesota- Gardenhire is the Field Manager, the GM is Bill Smith. See above post re: Bill Smith. Gardenhire fills out line-up cards, calls the bullpen, and pinch hits guys. He doesn't negotiate contracts or trades.

Regarding who "fuckin' cares" about the tough job... Not me! I want the same thing you do, I just have a different idea about how to get there. My idea would be to mimic teams like Minnesota, Tampa, and I'll probably be saying the same thing about the Nats in a couple years. I don't give a god damn about these dudes' feelings. I don't care that Wakamatsu was in a tough situation as far as my fandom goes. As a human, it sucks that he lost his job, but big fucking deal. He's Don Wakamatsu. A fart in the wind as far as an overall win contribution. I brought up the situation that Jack was handed so as to illustrate why we might excersize patience and maybe apply some logical thinking to the situation. I guess that's not going to happen.
Why isn't the national budget balanced Obama? You've had two years to wipe up that shit pile! Let's impeach his ass! Who fuckin' cares, fuckin' get someone in there that can do the job! Fuckin' look at Canada, those bitches are stoked!

As for the last paragraph... I've already repeatedly stated that I don't like the move, although I don't really see it as having a major effect on our chances of winning games. What more can I say? I don't need to touch on the timing of the move. I don't like it because it doesn't do ANY good.

If we have the same budget and same players as we do now, how does a different guy get us to the playoffs. Touch on that.

[clarknova]

Also, Neither Jeff Clement or Phillipe Aumont were drafted by Jack Z and his staff. Come on.

[JosephC]

1. I don't think anyone would argue Z's ability to draft players. That is what we knew before he even came to Seattle was that he had the ability to draft good, young players. He was showing that ability Milwaukee. What we never knew and still don't know is his abillity to sign FREE AGENTS. What big free agent signings has he been a part of? He did Branyan last year which was a positive, and he also did Figgins this year which has been a negative, and a pretty big one at that. Figgins hit this year, trying to get to .220 for a lot of the season. Can you think of another free agent we had (who had a good history with the M's the first couple years) and struggled the same? Oh yeah, his name was Richie Sexson. Yeah yeah, Sexson couldn't steal bases and Figgins is playing a more lucrative position but at the same time Sexson was hittinb bombs out in right and left field which Figgins has no ability to do. Richie Sexson was released mid way through the year after performing 2 outstanding years in Seattle and one pretty bad one.As GM it is great that you can draft young players (don't get me wrong, I really DO value this and that is one of the reasons WHY the Twins are always competitive) but you must also be able to pick good free agents. That is my biggest issue with Z and company. Seattle has been so bad at picking good free agents, I don't want a GM who can't pick them.Richie SexsonMiguel BatistaCarlos SilvaBrad Wilkerson (oh gosh)Jeff WeaverMiguel CairoCarl EverettThese POS moves have to stop.

[JosephC]

Anyone else having format problems? That was wacky

[clarknova]

I don't think anyone would argue Z's ability to draft players. That is what we knew before he even came to Seattle was that he had the ability to draft good, young players. He was showing that ability Milwaukee. What we never knew and still don't know is his abillity to sign FREE AGENTS. What big free agent signings has he been a part of? He did Branyan last year which was a positive, and he also did Figgins this year which has been a negative, and a pretty big one at that. Figgins hit this year, trying to get to .220 for a lot of the season. Can you think of another free agent we had (who had a good history with the M's the first couple years) and struggled the same? Oh yeah, his name was Richie Sexson. Yeah yeah, Sexson couldn't steal bases and Figgins is playing a more lucrative position but at the same time Sexson was hittinb bombs out in right and left field which Figgins has no ability to do. Richie Sexson was released mid way through the year after performing 2 outstanding years in Seattle and one pretty bad one.As GM it is great that you can draft young players (don't get me wrong, I really DO value this and that is one of the reasons WHY the Twins are always competitive) but you must also be able to pick good free agents. That is my biggest issue with Z and company. Seattle has been so bad at picking good free agents, I don't want a GM who can't pick them.Richie SexsonMiguel BatistaCarlos SilvaBrad Wilkerson (oh gosh)Jeff WeaverMiguel CairoCarl EverettThese POS moves have to stop.

Well, I'd say that considering that he basically got 1 type A free agent this last year and whiffed on him (so far), I don't know? What free agent signings are we grading him on? Figgins, Byrnes, Garko? That's basically one guy. Taking a chance on guys that make the league minimum can hardly be counted against him, or if you are going to do that, at least give him credit for guys like Branyan and Aardsma. I'd like a guy that signs great free agents too, but he took a risk and whiffed. What can you do? Nobody thought signing Figgins was a bad thing. He was almost universally praised by experts for that. As far as Sexson, he sucked bad at the end, but he basically did what was expected of him the first 2-3 years he was here: Hit 30-40 dingers, get 80-100 RBIs, and strike out 125 times a year. He only became a goat when he stopped hitting.

I get it, we suck, someone takes the blame, and the guy on the top is ultimately responsible. If we want to be like Minnesota, Tampa, or even Texas, we're going to have to stockpile some young talent. I mean, we all understand that Jack can't spend money he doesn't have right? He can't just force guys to sign here for whatever amount he wants. That is a fact. Therefore, if he has $11 million dollars to spend in the offseason which would not get him Bay, and we had no spot for guys like Thome or Vlad due to Griffey... and he gets Figgins, who was by all accounts awesome and a big piece of a major rival, and then takes a couple fliers on some maybes... That's a bad job if Figgins doesn't perform? I thought it was a good move at the time, and so did a lot of people. Hindsight can blind people sometimes.

[clarknova]

And Joseph, you know that every one of those POS moves you listed were done by Bill Bavasi and company right? Jack didn't sign any of those guys.

[TellItToTheDA]

1. I don't think anyone would argue Z's ability to draft players. That is what we knew before he even came to Seattle was that he had the ability to draft good, young players. He was showing that ability Milwaukee. What we never knew and still don't know is his abillity to sign FREE AGENTS. What big free agent signings has he been a part of? He did Branyan last year which was a positive, and he also did Figgins this year which has been a negative, and a pretty big one at that. Figgins hit this year, trying to get to .220 for a lot of the season. Can you think of another free agent we had (who had a good history with the M's the first couple years) and struggled the same? Oh yeah, his name was Richie Sexson. Yeah yeah, Sexson couldn't steal bases and Figgins is playing a more lucrative position but at the same time Sexson was hittinb bombs out in right and left field which Figgins has no ability to do. Richie Sexson was released mid way through the year after performing 2 outstanding years in Seattle and one pretty bad one.As GM it is great that you can draft young players (don't get me wrong, I really DO value this and that is one of the reasons WHY the Twins are always competitive) but you must also be able to pick good free agents. That is my biggest issue with Z and company. Seattle has been so bad at picking good free agents, I don't want a GM who can't pick them.Richie SexsonMiguel BatistaCarlos SilvaBrad Wilkerson (oh gosh)Jeff WeaverMiguel CairoCarl EverettThese POS moves have to stop.

Of those moves you mention, Miguel Batista was pretty good in his first year (16-11, 4.29 ERA, .276 BAA), Miguel Cairo signed an $850,000 deal, and was a serviceable utility guy. I'd even defend the Brad Wilkerson, Jeff Weaver, and Carl Everett signings, considering they were one year deals that didn't handcuff the team long term.

And I completely disagree with the contention that Figgins has been a negative addition. He's second in average and on base percentage to Ichiro (and that's what you'd expect from someone billed as a "second leadoff hitter"), first in stolen bases, first in walks, and second in hits. His numbers haven't reached his career averages, but come on, he hasn't scraped .220 in two months. Considering there's another month and a half left in the season, I fully expect his numbers to rise to something resembling his career norms. It wasn't a bad signing. And the numbers back that up.

[clarknova]

Figgins has been MUCH better lately- up to his potential. If he played like this all year we'd still suck. It was a UNIVERSAL turd layed by almost an entire team. Unless Jack poisoned them because he hates us and his self image... Yeah.

[Jared]

Also, Neither Jeff Clement or Phillipe Aumont were drafted by Jack Z and his staff. Come on.

Haha I know, that was more me elaborating on the shitty teams we've built since Ichiro's rookie season. I know that Gardenhire is the bench boss too, but my point was that he has a few things to work with. They are very good pieces to work with too in Mauer and Morneau, but a #3 hitter would cause a lot of damage with Ichiro always on. Wak would have done better with another guy in the lineup to help out our lead off guy. Zduriencik didn't provide him with one, and thus we have our current record. I realize too that there isn't much on the market, but you've got to do something about it.

I don't know if I actually want Z to get fired, but I wish there was some way to discipline his ass for not even building a batting order. The Rainiers would probably give us a run for our money.

[Nateyb24]

Wak lost the trust of the guys Z said at his confrence that he takes just as much blame if you even watched it. Would you save a manager for next year knowing he lost the trust of all 25 guys? I sure wouldn't.

I don't see how you can compare Z or Bavasi at all if you look at our minors it actually has talent Bavasi did the excact opposite trade our young guys for older MLB players who were past there prime.

I don't really buy what the guys said when they were sad to see Wak go maybe a few of the guys were but you'll never know who really liked him or didn't because you aren't going to bad mouth him to the public if your a player on the team.

Also i thought Figgins was a steal 36Mil for 4 years if he puts up his Anaheim numbers which he has been lately.

[rotoenquire]

I have had it the Raider's keep firing coach's and letting a mad man run the ship. Al Davis was good when he was younger and understood what was going on. But, the game and the same formula just does not work. You can't just worry about putting butts into the seats.

As long as Al Davis ownes this team we will have a revolving door at Coach and never win anything. I mean how many Coach's can you have in such a short time and still think people in the business or players willl take you seriously..

That's right M's fans insert M's Ownership instead of Al Davis and Manager's instead of Coach's and what do you get the Freaking Raiders of MLB.. GO! M's!... God I am moving to Oakland...

[clarknova]

Haha I know, that was more me elaborating on the shitty teams we've built since Ichiro's rookie season. I know that Gardenhire is the bench boss too, but my point was that he has a few things to work with. They are very good pieces to work with too in Mauer and Morneau, but a #3 hitter would cause a lot of damage with Ichiro always on. Wak would have done better with another guy in the lineup to help out our lead off guy. Zduriencik didn't provide him with one, and thus we have our current record. I realize too that there isn't much on the market, but you've got to do something about it.

I don't know if I actually want Z to get fired, but I wish there was some way to discipline his ass for not even building a batting order. The Rainiers would probably give us a run for our money.

I totally understand the frustration. I suppose the main difference in opinion is that I don't think there was much else that he could have possibly done. I mean, if I'm wrong, tell me who we could have gotten that would have made this team a good team. You can't get a 30-40 home run bat for nothing (unless you're Jack last season with Branyan). He simply does not have the payroll. Jack does not set the payroll either. I'm sure he'd love an extra $50 million. What he got instead was giant expiring contracts and a CUT in payroll. I'm sure if we had the money he'd work out a sign and trade for Fielder or Corey Hart with his old team or something like that. He had a deal on the table to get Adrian Gonzales from San Diego and pulled away at the last second because the deal involved Felix (this is pre-contract). He has said repeatedly that he would like 2 40+ home run guys in the line up and that he knows that we need them, but they just aren't there. He has said this publicly... Repeatedly.

Also, after some thought on my way home, I've changed my mind. I don't believe that the GM is responsible for the performance of the major league team on the field. I believe that he's held accountable for it, but don't agree that it's fair to judge a GM entirely on Jack Wilson's plate discipline, or Jose Lopez's range to the right, or any conglomeration of our team's shortcomings. I think the job of the GM is to make the best decisions possible with what he is given and that a smart GM will eventually produce a winner. This isn't the 1997 Florida Marlins where we can just go out and buy up all the available all-stars and get us a trophy. Things have to be done differently because of the resources we have. Jack says he's working towards a world series championship. So the stupidest thing he could do would be to trade our young talent for a guy that's only going to make us marginally better. We need to get massively better at at least 4 positions to even dream of a championship. If starts making really stupid decisions (10 million a year to Carlos Silva stupid, or 8 million a year to Miguel Batista stupid), I'll jump right off that bandwagon. Until then, I suppose in Jack I trust... He is building a better batting order. I agree that it sucks that it takes so fucking long.

By the way Jared, I laughed about the discipline for the shitty line up. I instantly pictured him being chased around Safeco by wild animals. Also, the last comment about the Rainiers is probably true!

[clarknova]

Also, the only reason that I want Valentine to be the manager is for the novelty of it. Eric Wedge or Fredi Gonzales I'm sure would be fine. Just not Cora. Please, no Cora. The last thing we need is to continue to milk the dried up decrepit teat that is 1995.

[JosephC]

I have had it the Raider's keep firing coach's and letting a mad man run the ship. Al Davis was good when he was younger and understood what was going on. But, the game and the same formula just does not work. You can't just worry about putting butts into the seats.

As long as Al Davis ownes this team we will have a revolving door at Coach and never win anything. I mean how many Coach's can you have in such a short time and still think people in the business or players willl take you seriously..

That's right M's fans insert M's Ownership instead of Al Davis and Manager's instead of Coach's and what do you get the Freaking Raiders of MLB.. GO! M's!... God I am moving to Oakland...

This made me laugh. Welcome to the forum :)

And yes, I am aware that all the crappy FA signings were by B.B. At the same time, Figgins looks like a similar signing. I cannot no matter what color of glasses I wear, see him as a plus on the team. Perhaps if we get him back to 3rd base, lead off hitter and on a winning team, he'd produce better. But as of right now, I see a guy who can't drive the ball well, gets on base a decent amount and is just a bit above average at 2nd base.

My point in posting those names is to show how many B.S signings we've had and how that is what has bogged down our team the most. Sure, trading away young talent for Bedard didn't help... but those FA signings hurt even more. You've got to get those right.

[clarknova]

And yes, I am aware that all the crappy FA signings were by B.B. At the same time, Figgins looks like a similar signing. I cannot no matter what color of glasses I wear, see him as a plus on the team. Perhaps if we get him back to 3rd base, lead off hitter and on a winning team, he'd produce better. But as of right now, I see a guy who can't drive the ball well, gets on base a decent amount and is just a bit above average at 2nd base.

My point in posting those names is to show how many B.S signings we've had and how that is what has bogged down our team the most. Sure, trading away young talent for Bedard didn't help... but those FA signings hurt even more. You've got to get those right.

Agree. Only I actually see Figgins doing exactly what he was brought in to do over the past couple weeks. It was from April to then that I saw really nothing. Sample size. I'm hoping the improvement continues and carries over into next year. If he can be what he was for Anaheim. We're stoked. Otherwise, he's a bust. It remains to be seen. I'll give him another year. I get your comparison with the FA signings now, I just don't think Jacks been even close to that stupid. Not yet.

[Jared]

What's pathetic is that we're worse than the Oakland Raiders. They have championships to their credit while we have a couple trips to the postseason and that's it. Sure their rings were in the 70's, but we don't have any at all. Al Davis might as well run this team, at least it would be stocked with guys who are athletic.