lueke

[gerhal]

I'm really not interested in who knew what or when. Lueke is now a Mariner. A contrite youngster wh made a really bad youthful choice. He deserves a second chance to be contributing member of society. The Mariners could turn this into a positive by pointing out he is turning his life around and use him to speak to youth about choices, etc. etc.

[JosephC]

I completely agree, and I wouldn't be surprised if he has already changed his life by looking at his twitter page. He is either putting on a publicity stunt, or he really has changed his ways. I hope he comes up and dominates and people give him a second chance. BTW, welcome to the forum!

[clarknova]

I thought I'd said all I can say about this subject in the other thread, but it does shock me a little how much support this guy is receiving. Not just in the "I'm going to focus on his pitching, not his personal life" crowd that I find myself in, but in the "it doesn't matter what he did, that was a long time ago and he was young" crowd. I get it, it's just a little, I don't know... I have to ask myself, would I feel the same if this kid were pitching for the Yankees (my most hated team)? I think if you can look at yourself honestly and say that you're not apologizing for him simply because he's in the Mariners farm system (that you'd feel exactly the same if he was in, say, the Angels system, or I don't know, if the girl was your sister.) and that everyone deserves a second chance, and admit that rape and sodomy are on another level entirely than getting busted for weed or a DUI, but that you're all about forgiveness- then OK, I'll buy it.

I'm just having a tough time believing all the support I'm reading in all these different places for the dude have nothing to do with him being in the Mariners system.
He did make a mistake, and he does have to live with it, but part of living with it is earning back respect. I don't just hand mine out because he puts on a Rainiers uniform. Sorry if that makes me a bad fan. I'll be watching him with a leery eye and hoping that he continues to man up and pitch well for the M's.

I'm going to choose not to downplay his actions at all. They were evil. Plain and simple. I'm just going to focus on the game as much as possible.
Ok, now I'm done!

He's been pitching well, and I wouldn't be surprised at all to see him called up this month.

[georgmi]

clarknova, I'm with you. Lincecum's marijuana possession? Get off the kid's back. But Lueke's rape is an entirely different story, especially when a plea deal in such a case is almost always more about protecting the victim from the further trauma and character assassination that comes with a trial than it is about not having enough evidence to eventually convict the rapist.

Tweeting about God and the Bible doesn't come close to making up for it. I hope he never throws a pitch in the majors.

[Igoe4Mariners]

As an outsider to the Seattle media, I haven't really been very exposed to the full story so I'm probably missing a few details, but nontheless, any person that rapes a girl (and it gets proven) shouldn't get out of jail for 30 years minimum in my mind. It takes a sick person to do that stuff and it's uncalled for.

Now Lueke's situation could be different (?) but I won't find myself exactly pulling for him anytime soon.

[clarknova]

You know, at this point, as this thing has progressed... This two headed monster (one head being the crime, the other being the mismanagement by the M's) needs to die. Sure, Lueke has an electric fastball, back end/closer stuff. Is he worth all this? Cut the kid loose. Trade him. I don't care about the skills anymore. He's a minor league bullpen pitcher. I understand we need help there long term, but this juice is not worth the squeeze. People are losing their jobs. People are being publicly humiliated. It's every day now and all over the media. What's going to happen when he does finally pitch at Safeco? Protests from women's groups. Boycotts. They need to mop this mess up pronto. This is so lame from every angle. If he pitches for the M's... So be it, I'll sit back and watch the drama continue to unfold, but this is a PR nightmare. This is Branyan multiplied by Mateo. Regardless of how you feel about any of the stories, is this really all worth a possibly good major league bullpen pitcher?

[Nateyb24]

If they got rid of Lueke sorry but i would believe this team does not care about winning you do not throw away a talented player. Chuck and Howie have been pulling crap like this for awhile now they need to stay the hell away from the team.

They all were drunk how do you not know it was consentual? He may have pleaded guilty but come on now the evidence was heavly against him none of it means he was guilty though.

Besides the kid made one mistake and everyones ready to go get there pitchforks and run the kid out of town. If Stallworth is allowed to kill someone and continue playing football i see no reason Lueke shouldn't get a 2nd chance if Vicks allowed to kill dogs and come back and play football again i see no reason Lueke shouldn't get a 2nd chance.

[clarknova]

If they got rid of Lueke sorry but i would believe this team does not care about winning you do not throw away a talented player. Chuck and Howie have been pulling crap like this for awhile now they need to stay the hell away from the team.

I get wanting to keep talent around no matter what because we suck... I'm just sick of the team constantly humiliating itself on and off the field. Lueke perpetuates that, like it or not. You obviously don't care about that, which is fine. I didn't either for a while.
Also! Hey! Here's some of what I was talking about. Can you give me some examples of "Chuck and Howie pulling crap like this"? Examples that are not based in what you think they did, but are based on actual evidence. I'm seriously curious. Note: I'm not defending them, I think they should be replaced, I just hear a lot of that "Chuck and Howie" rhetoric, and want to know what you're talking about.


They all were drunk how do you not know it was consentual? He may have pleaded guilty but come on now the evidence was heavly against him none of it means he was guilty though.

Wow... It's like, I really want to respond to that, but I don't think I should... I'll be as nice as I can. I really want to just laugh at the second sentence Natey, but it's really not funny. The evidence was heavily against him but that doesn't mean he's guilty? Let me get something clarified please. Your outlook on criminal justice is intriguing to me. Is it that you believe that if a girl gets drunk she deserves to get raped, that she can't be raped because if you're drunk you can't make good decisions and "no" is a malleable term, or that if a girl gets drunk she's taking her chances that she might get raped? And, he didn't "pleaded guilty" he pled "no contest". Can you give me a hypothetical on a situation where rape would be a valid claim? If it's that she's sober, it's on video and he doesn't play for the Mariners farm system... We're not only on different pages, we're not even in the same book. It was a plea deal because the girl didn't want to go through a trial where in defense attorneys would undoubtedly try to make it seem like she's a whore who deserved it. Lueke took the plea because he would have been found guilty based on overwhelming evidence.
How do I not know it was consensual? I'll answer that with a question. Why else would she file a police report? Nobody would have to know. By all accounts it was her and two guys there. By filing the report she opens herself up to humiliating scrutiny. What could she possibly be trying to gain by pretending he raped her? I'm very interested in your opinion on that.
Making excuses for him, and downplaying his actions is one thing, but blaming a rape victim for being raped is... Well, it's what I hope you're not doing.


Besides the kid made one mistake and everyones ready to go get there pitchforks and run the kid out of town. If Stallworth is allowed to kill someone and continue playing football i see no reason Lueke shouldn't get a 2nd chance if Vicks allowed to kill dogs and come back and play football again i see no reason Lueke shouldn't get a 2nd chance.

Double wow. First of all, everyone needs to stop it with this "he deserves a second chance" crap. He's obviously getting it. He's getting his second chance everyone! He's sharing the closer role for a AAA baseball team in the PCL playoffs right now. He's a step away from the majors. It's not like he pitched in the majors before and deserves to get back. He's pitching at the highest level he has in his professional career currently. Right now. He was promoted AFTER the trade. What should we do? Throw the guy a parade? Give me a f'n break.
I don't want to run him out of town because he "made one mistake". I want the team to trade him because he's more trouble than he's worth. This team needs more bad press and drama like I need a second asshole. Regardless of how you think it should play out. It's not going to play out that way. If he plays in Seattle I can almost GUARANTEE a backlash. I'm just sick of all the stupid drama, and sick of this whole situation. I'd just like to move on. Not to punish him further, but to be rid of the drama. I am fully prepared to watch him pitch in Seattle if that's what happens. I'm going to focus on the baseball team in regards to whether or not I cheer for the guy. I just have a hard time stomaching all this "she probably deserved it, if it even happened" stuff.
Comparing rape and forced sodomy to dog fighting and accidentally hitting a guy in a crosswalk with a car is beyond the pale Natey. Besides. HE IS GETTING A SECOND CHANCE.

I have two sisters and a daughter and if any of them got drunk (well, to clarify, my daughter would have to grow up first in this example. If she got drunk now, I'd have a bigger problem) and this happened to them, THE LAST thing I would do is say, "well, you were drunk, how do I know you didn't ask for it?" I would go straight medieval on the guy.

[clarknova]

clarknova, I'm with you. Lincecum's marijuana possession? Get off the kid's back. But Lueke's rape is an entirely different story, especially when a plea deal in such a case is almost always more about protecting the victim from the further trauma and character assassination that comes with a trial than it is about not having enough evidence to eventually convict the rapist.

Tweeting about God and the Bible doesn't come close to making up for it. I hope he never throws a pitch in the majors.

Thank you georgmi. I was starting to feel a little lonely out here on "rape is second only to murder" island.

I hate getting into the whole socio-political/morality/religion realm on a sports blog, but I'm not the one that injected it into my sports team. As long as it's a big issue for the Seattle Mariners, it's a big issue to me. The M's are a huge part of my life, and following them is somewhat of an obsession, but it's a game- played on a field for entertainment. I won't sacrifice my values to blindly support a team that represents a hobby.

[clarknova]

Although, my "values" obviously don't cover Greg Briley gleefully flashing his invisible vagina at everyone (or double penis, or pooping and signifying #2 in case you were curious which one he was going... However you interpret it).

[Nateyb24]

No Clark thats not what i mean what i mean by that was they found all that evidence against him you think hes going to fight the case when its a losing battle to begin with? All they will see is the clothes and think automatic rape. Never said what he did was right but im not going to sit here and judge him when so many sports icons get away with so much crap why shouldn't he??

I can tell you why i think Howard and Chuck are bad its because they held on to Bavasi and even came out defending the guy also going through 6 managers over the past 10 years the immediate firing of Wak. Now he sends out this letter to his staff that the Northwest media guys are bashing him when we are probaly have the softest media in the world.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/marinersblog/2012845879_mariners_ceo_howard_lincoln_to.html

[clarknova]

Natey,
I understood what you meant. You meant that he might as well give up if there's enough evidence to convict him, right? That's the purpose of a no-contest plea. I wasn't confused, we just disagree on whether or not that means he's innocent.
They saw a lot more than "clothes" dude. I can tell by what you've said that you don't know much about the case itself. That being the case, I don't see much point in arguing whether or not his admission was a lie. He stood up in court and apologized for violating her. Whether or not he did it seems moot. He admits he did it. If that doesn't convince people, then whatever.
As far as judging him... Yeah, I'm still having a tough time with that. I believe certain actions deserve to be judged, by a court of law, and by people in general. I totally understand people who're on the "I don't care about stuff outside the game, I just want to watch baseball" side. I have no problem with that, I'm trying to join that team. I DO have a problem with any variation of "she deserved it", "she's to blame", "it was consensual", or "come on, it's not a big deal". You're totally entitled to that opinion, I just feel like I'm also entitled to my opinion on that opinion. That's all.
It's a hot button issue. Reading articles about it and the comment section I'm seeing things like "Sounds like a dumb broad out for a buck". That's just soulless to me (and dumb, he was a A ball pitcher for the Bakersfield Blaze living in an apartment).
I'm going to try to come up with an interesting NON LUEKE thread today! There MUST be something else to talk about.
Natey- I'm not trying to hate on you, don't get me wrong. I'm just challenging your positions because I disagree.

On to "Chuck and Howie"!
I'm truly interested in this, and getting input from others.
So, as I stated in a different thread, this is what I know of Howard Lincoln and Chuck Armstrong's verifiable offenses:
1. They hired Bill Bavasi
2. They took too long to fire Bill Bavasi
3. Howard Lincoln wrote a scathing, paranoid, and childish email lashing out at the media and taking no responsibility for any team or organizational failures.

That's it. And before last week, all I had was the first two. You yourself Natey can be found on this forum in different threads calling out Chuck and Howie and accusing them based on what seems to be some past offenses before that letter came to press in Baker's blog. I'm not attacking you, I'm asking for the full story. I want to know what it is that makes everyone hate these two so much beyond the team totally sucking. The following are the rumors that I've heard about them and their "meddling":

1. One of them/both of them vetoed a trade that would have sent Jarrod Washburn to Minnesota in 2008.
2. It was repeated that one of them/both of them had stated that Griffey would not be a Mariner (after the re-signing) when he decided he didn't want to be and not before.
2-a. It was speculated that they made a huge push to sign Griffey, overriding their GM, and then re-signing him at the beginning of 2010. It has been speculated that Griffey's tenure with the M's was out of Jack Zduriencik's hands.
3. They fired Carmen Fusco to punish Jack for mishandling the Josh Lueke situation.

That is the extent of all that I know, or have heard, besides posters on blogs and forums pointing the finger with no evidence. I am not saying they aren't meddling idiots. I'm simply asking, if they are- show me more. Is that it? I want to know what everyone else knows. As far as the managers getting fired- that's the prerogative of the GM. Unless you have any data to support that Chuck Armstrong or Howard Lincoln ordered the GMs to fire these managers, that is pure speculation and can't be added to my list.

Basically, due to the letter itself I have lost total faith in upper management. It was scary immature.
I'm trying to embolden my sense of wanting them gone by reaching out to people I hear constantly ripping on them, this forum included, and have received surprisingly little response and zero new information.

So, what's up y'all? Is there any reason I should hate these guys besides what I've outlined above?