Chuck and Howie Player Hating Thread

[clarknova]

I decided to give this it's own thread because it was not on topic and because not half an hour after I pressed enter on my post regarding this subject in one of our three Lueke threads I came across this from Shannon Drayer being posted simultaneously:

http://mynorthwest.com/category/mariners_blog_articles/20100916/Howard-and-Chuck-did-not-meddle/

I kid you not, this is pure coincidence. I was asking this same question the other day in a different thread. To all those that use terms like "The Chuck and Howie show" or "This has Chuck and Howie written all over it" or "I know for a FACT that Chuck and Howie had a hand in this", please read it.

Here is my post from the other thread:


On to "Chuck and Howie"!
I'm truly interested in this, and getting input from others.
So, as I stated in a different thread, this is what I know of Howard Lincoln and Chuck Armstrong's verifiable offenses:
1. They hired Bill Bavasi
2. They took too long to fire Bill Bavasi
3. Howard Lincoln wrote a scathing, paranoid, and childish email lashing out at the media and taking no responsibility for any team or organizational failures.

That's it. And before last week, all I had was the first two. I want to know what it is that makes everyone hate these two so much beyond the team totally sucking. The following are the rumors that I've heard about them and their "meddling":

1. One of them/both of them vetoed a trade that would have sent Jarrod Washburn to Minnesota in 2008.
2. It was repeated that one of them/both of them had stated that Griffey would not be a Mariner (after the re-signing) when he decided he didn't want to be and not before.
2-a. It was speculated that they made a huge push to sign Griffey, overriding their GM, and then re-signing him at the beginning of 2010. It has been speculated that Griffey's tenure with the M's was out of Jack Zduriencik's hands.
3. They fired Carmen Fusco to punish Jack for mishandling the Josh Lueke situation.

That is the extent of all that I know, or have heard, besides posters on blogs and forums pointing the finger with no evidence. I am not saying they aren't meddling idiots. I'm simply asking, if they are- show me more. Is that it? I want to know what everyone else knows. As far as the managers getting fired- that's the prerogative of the GM. Unless you have any data to support that Chuck Armstrong or Howard Lincoln ordered the GMs to fire these managers, that is pure speculation and can't be added to my list.

Basically, due to the letter itself I have lost total faith in upper management. It was scary immature.
I'm trying to embolden my sense of wanting them gone by reaching out to people I hear constantly ripping on them, this forum included, and have received surprisingly little response and zero new information.

So, what's up y'all? Is there any reason I should hate these guys besides what I've outlined above?

I omitted the part where I was speaking directly to another poster in the other thread. So, if anyone has any insights. Please read Drayer's article and let me know what you think.

[phredmojo]

drayer is nothing but a hack on the mariners payroll. i'd put a bullet in my head before i read anything she wrote

[clarknova]

drayer is nothing but a hack on the mariners payroll. i'd put a bullet in my head before i read anything she wrote

LOL! phred, you're a hater extraordinaire. That's why I like you. You always bring such insight to the conversation! You almost made me spray the half and half I accidentally poured on my Cheerios all over the screen.
So, what? You got nothing? You'd rather blow your brains out than read some of Drayer's homerism, but do you have anything to add to the discussion about upper management?

Here's you from 8-20-2010:

not really. i happen to know for a fact the firing of wak and the hiring of brown was not Z's decision at all. it was 100% chuckie's

Source?

[phredmojo]

2 people that work for the mariners.

[Nateyb24]

drayer is nothing but a hack on the mariners payroll. i'd put a bullet in my head before i read anything she wrote

I wouldn't call her a hack but she definitley is biased and does not take shots at people. I can see why though she doesn't want to step on peoples toes.

[clarknova]

I wouldn't call her a hack but she definitley is biased and does not take shots at people. I can see why though she doesn't want to step on peoples toes.

Right. There are plenty of places to get your Mariners info from. I don't like Baker, but I read his blog from time to time because even though I think he's a jerk, I'll read pretty much anything about the M's. Sometimes he surprises me and is very insightful. Drayer is sure to give you the latest excuses for Jose Lopez or Rob Johnson, but whatever. I don't expect all the reporters to report exactly what I want to hear in exactly the right way. Sometimes they report crap, or boring pointless turtles, or whatever, but sometimes their insight and ideas are worth my time.

[clarknova]

2 people that work for the mariners.

They told you that they know that this happened? How do they know? I don't expect you're going to name these people, but how can we know that they know this information "for a fact" and aren't just speculating? The M's employ hundreds of people. I mean, I want to believe you, but right now I've got: A guy on a forum I post on told me that he heard from 2 people that work for the mariners that it was "100%" Chuck Armstrong's decision to fire Don Wakamatsu. Can you give me anything else?


Anyone else have ANYTHING? Does anyone have any, oh I don't know... evidence? Quotes? Regurgitations? Pretty weak so far. I'm beginning to think that there are hundreds, if not thousands of M's fans that hate Howard Lincoln and Chuck Armstrong for no good reason, which is fine, I don't care if they do- I just thought I'd get some other reasons or explanations. What I've got so far is- before the email came to press, the reason why Chuck and Howie are completely incompetent is Bill Bavasi?

[phredmojo]

i know my sources aren't speculating and are stating facts because i have known them for several years and tust them to tell the truth. if i posted all of what i know at least 1 person would be fired possibly 2. now convincing you or anyone else of what i know to be true, well that is upto my reputaion for facts the last 12 years and 150,000+ posts on various boards and on the individual to decide for themselves if they believe me or not.

[clarknova]

i know my sources aren't speculating and are stating facts because i have known them for several years and tust them to tell the truth. if i posted all of what i know at least 1 person would be fired possibly 2. now convincing you or anyone else of what i know to be true, well that is upto my reputaion for facts the last 12 years and 150,000+ posts on various boards and on the individual to decide for themselves if they believe me or not.

Fair enough. Very interesting (juicy stuff!). That's what I'm talking about.
You get around, don't you phred?

Wait a minute...


drayer is nothing but a hack on the mariners payroll.

It was DRAYER WASN'T IT?! You posted that to cover for her, and SHE posted that blog about the innocence of the front office to cover for HERSELF! Now I'm on to something. Nice try phred, but I saw through your ruse.

Just kidding. Seriously though, if Chuck did order Wak fired... That's what, Griffey retribution?

[phredmojo]

thats exactly what it is. when griffey told him he wasn't ever coming back to safeco as long as wak was there, wak had to go. chuckie wants griffey back (not as a player, but back) so wak had to go. if griffey would have said z, then z would have been fired. much like a few years ago wehn ichiro wanted hargrove gone and hargrove was "allowed to quit".

yeah i get around, piss alot of people off too. lol. there are 2 camps, people love me or people want to kill me lol

[clarknova]

I don't know if I could say that I love you Phred, but I definitely find your bitterness, stubbornness, and utter disdain for things you don't like endearing. Definitely don't want to kill you. If you were gone there'd be nobody around to follow up my thoughtful, rambling, boring, hour long babble with dark one liners that ignore the post almost entirely and state a depressing and insulting opinion as an irrefutable fact (which I usually find hilarious). I have a much bigger problem with "wrong" (yes, I understand the subjectivity) than "not nice". I have a dark sense of humor.

[JosephC]

phred, if it was either Drayer or Baker, tell us please so we can get one of them fired :D. Okay, that was mean.

[phredmojo]

lol. while drayer is on the m's payroll, sadly it wasn't her lol

[clarknova]

I know everyone is SO STOKED to see this thread back up on top! (sarcasm).
Truth is, I'm still not far from my original position on the M's ownership- which is that I don't buy half the conspiracy stuff (and I'm DONE asking about it, I know, thank god right?), but I think from the standpoint of wanting the team to be as awesome as possible, when I look at franchises like the Seahawks, which for whatever they've gone through as their ousted GM allowed aging former stars with dwindling talent to continue to embarrass themselves, drafted poorly (A CENTER IN THE FIRST ROUND?! ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!), and made poor free agent acquisitions (Julius Jones, Housh) for which he overpaid and was allowed to keep his job for too long (is any of this sounding familiar?)- Paul Allen is the richest owner in sports and is a passionate fan. So, while there may be some lean years, he gives players a reason to want to be here, and dumps tons of money into the franchise (see: Jim Mora's contract buy out). So, whereas I don't hate or fear the team's ownership currently, I see definite room for improvement, and would welcome a change with open arms. Lincoln's letter hurt my opinion of the way the team is run from the top immensely.
I have been hearing that an ownership change is not out of the realm of possibility, and to look to start hearing more in the next 6 to 18 months (these things can take FOREVER), and this rumor is not new. phred is no doubt familiar with it and might possibly poop on it. ;) -Here's the way it goes, and I've been reading this and rolling my eyes at it since at least 2006- Chris Larson is a minority owner of the team. He's Microsoft rich and wants to be a majority owner badly. Our Japanese benefactor Hiroshi Yamauchi sold his shares of the team to Nintendo of America a few years back. These old Nintendo suits are getting old and are looking to maybe sell. Larson and his group are all over it apparently, and has been waiting in the wings for years. This might not happen, in fact, history holds that it wont.... But, I'm saying THERE'S A CHANCE. I heard this on the Prospect Insider podcast from a couple days ago downloadable to itunes. Anyway, just food for thought about the most likely ownership change we're going to see.

[phredmojo]

basically all yamuchi did was transfer his shares from his personal name to his companys name for the purpose of his Estate planning (his Will) . but he is still running the team via his stooges chuckie and howie and not nintendo. when jason and others posted a few years ago that larson was trying to buy out the mariners, larsons response was something like "thats news to me, no truth to that at all". most of what churchill says is 100% BS. if you're looking for yamuchi to sell (its still his team despite what names are on the titke) then good luck you'll have a long wait. Churchill shoulkd stick to what he knows best, cheating at fantasy baseball lol

[clarknova]

phred is no doubt familiar with it and might possibly poop on it.

"Getting to knoooww you, Getting to know all abooouut you..."

[JosephC]

Think phred might be on the money here. In a report where they suggested this back in 2008, you can find here:
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/story/10884085

Key quote that disproves a lot of this....

One source close to the Mariners says that the club's decision to award catcher Kenji Johjima a three-year, $24 million contract in April was based solely on the Japanese ownership group's desire to take care of him before getting out, and that the baseball operations people wanted no part of extending Johjima.

Joji is gone, ownership is still here. I want to believe that these rumors are more "hopes" than actual facts.

[clarknova]

and I've been reading this and rolling my eyes at it since at least 2006

Yeah. I read that article in 2008.
Lesson learned.

"Cuz' you got to know when to hold em', know when to fold em'...."

I think maybe it's time for me to stop talking about ownership! :)

ABANDON ALL HOPE ALL YE WHO FOLLOW THE MARINERS!

[JosephC]

I'd say it's more to stop taking what the media says to be true, or speculates... I'm taking a class on media in society at UW and it's amazing how much B.S. the media can get away with. With the internet and blogs, the media wants to be the first to break a story and much of the time they do so with little to no evidence. The result is inaccurate information which no one knows who to point the finger at.

[clarknova]

I'd say it's more to stop taking what the media says to be true, or speculates...


In a report where they suggested this back in 2008, you can find here:

Oh reeeaally? Just kidding.
Where is the truth then? I like the truth. I like facts. To be honest, I'd take a media report over a bitter fan's obvious opinion any day. If I'm getting my misguided info from liars and propagandists, can someone please point me in the direction of a truthful source?

Good point about Joji though, honestly. I forgot how bizarre that was. THAT is what I'm looking for.

[JosephC]

Truthful sources come from players, coaches and ownership themselves. Even THEN (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/mariners/2012784518_lueke02.html) we don't know if it's true, but it's likely truer than the way the media can slant stuff. Anything to break a story they'll do. Even if it's completely wrong (http://seattle.mariners.mlb.com/news/print.jsp?ymd=20091222&content_id=7845244&vkey=news_sea&fext=.jsp&c_id=sea). There really isn't any way to get true information in life. You have to take the best you can get and run with it.

[clarknova]

There really isn't any way to get true information in life. You have to take the best you can get and run with it.

The truth is subjective.
I know, I was being facetious.
I am taking the best I can get and running with it. I'm not sorry that what it runs to is different than others, and I don't think that I put any more credence into what reporters and bloggers write than someone who puts credence into rumors and theories.


Truthful sources come from players, coaches and ownership themselves.

I disagree.

[JosephC]

You would prefer to hear it from the Seattle Times, than from an interview where a player says it directly? :o

[clarknova]

I believe they both have reasons to spin, bend the truth, and even lie. Besides, are you hanging out with the players, or are you getting their quotes through the Seattle Times? Do you think they say what they really think and feel to the media? I just don't share that "belief system". Zing! Just kidding. Agree to disagree?

Just because my opinion differs doesn't mean I believe lies. People can take the same data and reach a different conclusion, or different data on the same subject. When dealing with what people say, there is no "purer" source. I may read blogs and writers that others on this site find arrogant, or "100% BS". I just don't agree with that, and that should be fine. I mean sheesh, this is baseball, not politics. It's not the Chuckandhowicans vs. the Trustinjackicrats.

I just heard a rumor, from someone that I think is smart. I know I'd heard it before from the same source, but I thought it was interesting. It could turn out to be nothing more than a rumor, or not. I specified that. I didn't say it was going to happen. I found it interesting, so because I did, I thought maybe someone else would. The inference that I'm gullible or somehow naive is not something I'm going to take sitting down, but that's fine. I accept that there's a non zero chance that someone might drop a giant deuce on something I post. I've dropped my share. I'll stick up for my opinions though. Believe that.

Anyway, I think I'm done. I regret reopening this.
Note to self.

[JosephC]

No, I think it's an interesting topic man :). Although this probably deserves it's own thread. You have a good point as well that players and coaches may feel the same need as the media, to cover up mistakes and what not. In fact there is a point where players and coaches have an "out". They can ALWAYS refuse to talk about something they don't wish to. The media cannot just go out and say "sorry, I refuse to comment on why I wrote this article". Once in question, they have to back it up. That is why sources are so important to the media. If they are found quoting something that actually never happened, they're going to lose their job (aka. Griffey sleeping story was considered perhaps being false at first). I see where you are coming from, but I still think hearing it from the person is one less "interpreter" the truth has to go through. That's why I think direct is better than undirect. But you bring up a good, good point. Gonna hafta think about this some more.

Wonder what TITTDA thinks, considering he wants a career in the field.

[phredmojo]

i'm out of here

[JosephC]

okay then? Not sure what made you upset, and I can't tell if you really are or not. However, when I thought to open a forum, I planned to have it be a place where all opinions count. In order to do that, people are going to get toes stepped on. I"ll step on toes. There's nothing I can do about it and I don't plan to. It's an open forum and completely open opinions even if they are crazy. Heck, I think Griffey is going to come back and hit .320 with 30 HR's next year with the Red Sox. Okay, maybe not. But I would be open to someone who posted it since it is their opinion.

I haven't seen anything offensive, if there is, fill me in.

[Nateyb24]

I can only assume what Chuck and Howie do no way i can get actual proof most of it goes down behind closed doors. I will say this though over the past 10 years ive never seen consistency just utter chaos.

One screw up they did was keeping Bavasi when they were going to fire him wether he had a winning record or not nothing good can come from a GM when he starts making drastic moves because he knows his butts on the line.

By the way it was a pretty dumb idea whoever decided to bring Griffey back last year should have been it for him i loved what Griffey did for us but he can act very immature and i don't think he handled Wak telling him hes not going to be an everyday player anymore. (Why couldn't Chuck and Howie do this by the way theyre the ones who had the relationship with Griffey not Wak not a surprise Griffey acted the way he did after hearing his real personality behind the scenes.)

But im not here to change anyones opinion just because i dislike them doesn't mean anyone else has to.