Valentine not necessarily the front-runner

[TellItToTheDA]

http://mlbbuzz.yardbarker.com/blog/mlbbuzz/what_are_the_potential_snags_in_a_valentine_marine rs_coupling/3413433


It comes as no surprise that Bobby Valentine had a strong interview with the Mariners, according to a major-league source. Valentine, highly intelligent and well-spoken, almost always interviews well.

The source, however, says that the Mariners also were impressed by their other candidates, and do not necessarily consider Valentine the front-runner.

Even if Valentine emerges as the Mariners’ choice, significant obstacles could stand in the way of him getting the job:

[Igoe4Mariners]

Should be interesting in the next few days.

[clarknova]

Well, I guess we can still hold out hope for "The Hammer" Valentine...
Bobby V. is out:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/thehotstoneleague/

[Nateyb24]

Watch it be someone not from that list i think i remember reading somewere Z will hire someone stealthly or something like that.

Probaly wanted big $$ and the front office didn't want to pay it can't argue with that.

[clarknova]

Reading various twitter posts speculating that Wedge may now be the front runner. Buster Olney is hearing that Wedge did "very, very well" in his interview....

[Nateyb24]

Reading various twitter posts speculating that Wedge may now be the front runner. Buster Olney is hearing that Wedge did "very, very well" in his interview....

This most likely means Milton Bradley is going to get cut but id love to see Milton stay on the team can you picture Wedge and Bradley being on the same team after Milton wearing that "**** Wedge" Shirt lol.

[clarknova]

Also, if Wedge is named manager- Props to TellItToTheDA for throwing that name out in July, the first time I'd heard it mentioned in connection to the position.

[clarknova]

This most likely means Milton Bradley is going to get cut but id love to see Milton stay on the team can you picture Wedge and Bradley being on the same team after Milton wearing that "**** Wedge" Shirt lol.

Someone tweeted the other day, I think it was lookoutlanding, that Wedge could break the ice by wearing a "F@#K Milton Bradley" shirt to meet the team!

[JosephC]

from ussmariner.com
Another update: Ken Rosenthal says John Gibbons has been told he’s out, too. All signs pointing to Eric Wedge at this point.

[Nateyb24]

mariners have settled on eric wedge to be their next manager. story up soon on si.com.

http://twitter.com/SI_JonHeyman/status/27476512488

And Wedge it is.

[JosephC]

Mega kudos to TITTDA for bringing the name up way early. Where do you store that magic ball dude?
edit: so exactly what happens to Daren Brown? Does he just stroll back to AAA?

[worldwideed]

How long before someone registers the following domain name: FireEricWedge.com ?

Does this mean that Milton Bradley has had his last AB as a Mariner?

P.S. It doesn't really matter to me who they hire. Any Mariners manager is hired for only one reason, so they can eventually act as the scape goat for Lincoln and Armstrong.

[phredmojo]

of course he did. he's a yes man that was cheap. just like howie and chuckie like them

[JosephC]

Danget! Already taken. http://fireericwedge.com/ is owned through godaddy.

[kiowaman]

What the bleep is wrong with this team? Is it not so that Wedge got fired from the Indians? The fact that they even thought of Cooper was a laugh, or Gibbons! All they are doing is recycling those in the biz who did not succeed at their other job and I do not see where Wedge will do any different. So what if he did well in an interview! Are you kidding me? Look, I have hired and fired before and have seen some do just hunky dory in the interview process but when I looked back at what they would bring to my place and what they had in other jobs the interview sometimes did not hold up to the person being hired. It amazes me that Valentine continues to be left out in the cold. I am not saying that he would lead the team to greatness in the next two years and I think we know why. The team is in shambles and the current GM has not shown me and many others that he can do the job he has been hired for. He is not agressive in going after a manager who would bring some crediblity to the team. Instead we have most likely got another manager who will not come down on the players when needed. We saw a team quit this season and neither Brown or Wak looked to have the guts to bring in certain players, shut the door, and precede to let them know they were not living up to not only their paycheck but the interigity of the game.
Very sad for the M's. Very sad. Just about every player, and I mean every player on this team could use a good old fashioned butt chewing but I know that even though maybe one or two may get that there are those who's need to take care of their stats and not worry about if it helps the team or not will not, as usual, get the chewing they should get because we just wouldn't want to hurt the feelings of those certain players. They may call the lame big owner and cry and that manager would not have a job. WE have already seen that happen haven't we?
No, my prediction, and i hope I am wrong, is that once again we will recycle a lame manager for a couple of years, the team will continue to fall, then the GM and that manager will be sent packing. Why? Because the lame nitwits way upstairs in this organization are still the ones calling the shots. Lincoln and Armstrong need gone. In fact someone as I have said many times with the bucks, and the want to actually make this biz better instead of just looking good themselves needs to purchase the M's from every person who has a piece of the team or at least get the big majority of it so they are the ones calling the shots, and then, and only then do I see a change happening for the good. Either that or we will see the crappy attendance the Rays have had even when they were winning, except the Mariner's will deserve the small crowds.
Once again as a long time from the start of it all fan I am not happy with the choice made but being the majority of the fans of this team will not express their anger but just go along and hope that something happens will not make ownership do any different than has been done for most of this decade and likely for a long time to come.

[JosephC]

No, my prediction, and i hope I am wrong, is that once again we will recycle a lame manager for a couple of years, the team will continue to fall, then the GM and that manager will be sent packing. Why? Because the lame nitwits way upstairs in this organization are still the ones calling the shots. Lincoln and Armstrong need gone.


I am curious if there is anyone on this board that disagrees with this? It seems to be the overall conclusion from almost everyone in the blogosphere. At the same time I want to remind everyone that had it not been for Chuck Armstrongs leadership in the Mariners, the Mariners would currently be playing for Miami or Tampa Bay. He might not have the leadership it takes to run the team, but I don't think it's fair to want to run him out of town. I wish he would see that he is not fit for the role he plays and would remove himself, or take a smaller role. I know I'm dreaming.

[clarknova]

Quote Originally Posted by kiowaman View Post
No, my prediction, and i hope I am wrong, is that once again we will recycle a lame manager for a couple of years, the team will continue to fall, then the GM and that manager will be sent packing. Why? Because the lame nitwits way upstairs in this organization are still the ones calling the shots. Lincoln and Armstrong need gone.

I am curious if there is anyone on this board that disagrees with this? It seems to be the overall conclusion from almost everyone in the blogosphere. At the same time I want to remind everyone that had it not been for Chuck Armstrongs leadership in the Mariners, the Mariners would currently be playing for Miami or Tampa Bay. He might not have the leadership it takes to run the team, but I don't think it's fair to want to run him out of town. I wish he would see that he is not fit for the role he plays and would remove himself, or take a smaller role. I know I'm dreaming.


I disagree. I agree that it's a possibility that if Jack isn't actually a wizard that he'll be fired. I don't agree at all that Eric Wedge is a lame manager. I disagree that managers are as important as everyone makes them out to be. Without proof or even speculation from someone other than a disgruntled fan who is scapegoating the front office and simultaneously admonishing them for scapegoating field managers (am I the only one that's getting the irony in that?), I don't buy the conspiracy stuff. I have contacted the people at "Fire Nintendo", visited their website, read their posts, and have yet to be convinced that beyond some rumors about their meddling and stupidity, "Chuck and Howie" have done anything other than be unlucky. Not that I'm saying it's not possible, I just like facts. When I hear some (and I'm looking, believe me), maybe I'll jump ship. Until then, if that's what the majority thinks, count me in the minority.

[clarknova]

I think this is a question I'd like to see answered: If you're (and by "you're" I mean anyone) so sure Eric Wedge sucks and was a terrible, terrible hire then you obviously possess some advanced knowledge for calculating a managers effect on a team. Who do you think would have been a good hire???? Who should they have hired??? My next question would be, WHY?!?!?!



Once again as a long time from the start of it all fan I am not happy with the choice made but being the majority of the fans of this team will not express their anger but just go along and hope that something happens will not make ownership do any different than has been done for most of this decade and likely for a long time to come.

And this? What are we supposed to do Kiowaman? If I'm not "going along and hoping", I have one of only two available choices- 1. Quit. Quit watching and following them 2. Bitch and moan and complain on message boards and blog comment threads on the internet. How am I supposed to "express my anger", in what way, and then, what effect is this supposed to have on the team?? I have no problem expressing my anger when I'm angry, believe me. I just, again, here comes the "F" word so many fans seem to be so opposed to, I like FACTS.

I know it sucks that the team sucks. I just think it might be a better idea to look at other teams that have done well with similar budgets and look at how they did that, then look back at our team. I'll tell you what, if you do actually do that, and not just drink the Chuck and Howie Hateraide because they're the easy target, you'll like the looks of our GM a lot more. As for the "guys at the top".... I've read a pretty childish email written by one of them, and they did hire Bavasi.... I certainly wouldn't be SAD to see them go, but if they truly are mutant aliens that feed on disappointment, PROVE IT.

[Nateyb24]

I can't find any love for Chuck and Howie when they go and fire managers left and right every year and a half i mean seriously in a year and a half we will probaly already be looking for our next manager.

Hope im wrong and they actually give this guy a chance firing Wak was a mistake and he was just the fall guy imo.

[clarknova]

how much do managers influence a game when your farm isn't producing talent?

Thank you. Finally. However, the below quote seems a bit in-congruent with the above.


I can't find any love for Chuck and Howie when they go and fire managers left and right every year and a half

The General Manager is responsible for hiring and firing the Field Manager. I think maybe we should look at what we know for a fact happened:

After Lou Piniella abruptly left/demanded to be let go/was oddly traded because- as the story goes, the front office would not provide him with the talent necessary to make a run at the playoffs and frustrated he decided he'd rather manage the worst team in baseball with the lowest payroll in baseball (to be close to home), Bob Melvin was hired as the manager. After causing the team (this is sarcasm folks) to win 99 games in 2004, Bob Melvin decided he didn't want to be good at managing anymore and made the team lose 99 games the next season. Since Bob Melvin was allowed to keep his job by then GM Bill Bavasi who took over as GM AFTER Melvin had already been the manager for a year, after a near 100 loss season, Melvin was let go so that Bavasi could have his pick. His Pick was Mike Hargrove, who managed the M's for two pathetic years before QUITTING mysteriously in the midst of a winning season. His replacement? The bench coach John McLaren. McLaren made the team win enough games to finish in 2nd place in 2007, but was replaced mid season after posting (and causing the team to post) a record of 25-47. HIS replacement? HIS bench coach Jim Riggleman, who was only slightly better at making players more naturally talented and finished out 2008 with a record of 36-54. 2009 saw the hiring of Jack Zduriencik who wanted to bring his own manager in and the team hired Don Wakamatsu who was let go after one of the most drama filled ridiculously bad years in the history of baseball, and replaced by the M's AAA affiliate manager. So, to recap:
Piniella- quit (last season record: 93-69)
Melvin- fired, replaced by new GM (last season record: 63-99)
Hargrove- quit, replaced by his own bench coach (in house replacement) (last season record: 45-33)
McLaren- fired, replaced by his own bench coach (in house replacement) (last season record: 25-47)
Riggleman- fired, replaced by new GM (last season record: 36-54)
Wakamatsu- fired, replaced by AAA manager (in house replacement) (last season record: 42-70)

These managers were ALL fired by the GM of the team. Unless you can prove, beyond "that's so totally Chuck and Howie", that they ORDERED their GM to fire any of these managers, that is pure rumor and speculation. Besides, two of them quit, and the only 3 that came from outside of the M's organization were Bob Melvin, Mike Hargrove, and Don Wakamatsu.

I agree with you that firing managers is annoying. It annoys me because, for the most part, it's pointless. But, if it is fairly pointless, and only really just kind of annoying, and there really isn't any substantial proof at all that the President and CEO actually ordered these moves, then how is that a reason to hate them?
If the argument is, "well, they hired the GM who fired them, so they're vicariously responsible" then, ok, that's the same as blaming the field manager for not making his hitters hit better, isn't it? Aren't you scapegoating? At least if that's the approach you're just saying "make the guys at the top responsible", which I think is sort of logical, although I don't think that way, I get it.

Here's what I don't like and the MAIN reason I'd be happy if there was an ownership change: The M's seem to run the team in a "strictly business" way- ie. they make less money, they spend less money. They don't seem to want to spend more to make more. They don't seem like real "fans" of the game, they seem like fans of power and money. I'd like it if the owner was more like Arte Moreno, or even Steinbrenner. I hated Steinbrenner, but at least he was a fan of baseball. That's it though, really... I found the email to be pretty obnoxious... It's just, I mean, are we really making shit up at this point? Come on.

[Nateyb24]

Thank you. Finally. However, the below quote seems a bit in-congruent with the above.



The General Manager is responsible for hiring and firing the Field Manager. I think maybe we should look at what we know for a fact happened:

After Lou Piniella abruptly left/demanded to be let go/was oddly traded because- as the story goes, the front office would not provide him with the talent necessary to make a run at the playoffs and frustrated he decided he'd rather manage the worst team in baseball with the lowest payroll in baseball (to be close to home), Bob Melvin was hired as the manager. After causing the team (this is sarcasm folks) to win 99 games in 2004, Bob Melvin decided he didn't want to be good at managing anymore and made the team lose 99 games the next season. Since Bob Melvin was allowed to keep his job by then GM Bill Bavasi who took over as GM AFTER Melvin had already been the manager for a year, after a near 100 loss season, Melvin was let go so that Bavasi could have his pick. His Pick was Mike Hargrove, who managed the M's for two pathetic years before QUITTING mysteriously in the midst of a winning season. His replacement? The bench coach John McLaren. McLaren made the team win enough games to finish in 2nd place in 2007, but was replaced mid season after posting (and causing the team to post) a record of 25-47. HIS replacement? HIS bench coach Jim Riggleman, who was only slightly better at making players more naturally talented and finished out 2008 with a record of 36-54. 2009 saw the hiring of Jack Zduriencik who wanted to bring his own manager in and the team hired Don Wakamatsu who was let go after one of the most drama filled ridiculously bad years in the history of baseball, and replaced by the M's AAA affiliate manager. So, to recap:
Piniella- quit (last season record: 93-69)
Melvin- fired, replaced by new GM (last season record: 63-99)
Hargrove- quit, replaced by his own bench coach (in house replacement) (last season record: 45-33)
McLaren- fired, replaced by his own bench coach (in house replacement) (last season record: 25-47)
Riggleman- fired, replaced by new GM (last season record: 36-54)
Wakamatsu- fired, replaced by AAA manager (in house replacement) (last season record: 42-70)

These managers were ALL fired by the GM of the team. Unless you can prove, beyond "that's so totally Chuck and Howie", that they ORDERED their GM to fire any of these managers, that is pure rumor and speculation. Besides, two of them quit, and the only 3 that came from outside of the M's organization were Bob Melvin, Mike Hargrove, and Don Wakamatsu.

I agree with you that firing managers is annoying. It annoys me because, for the most part, it's pointless. But, if it is fairly pointless, and only really just kind of annoying, and there really isn't any substantial proof at all that the President and CEO actually ordered these moves, then how is that a reason to hate them?
If the argument is, "well, they hired the GM who fired them, so they're vicariously responsible" then, ok, that's the same as blaming the field manager for not making his hitters hit better, isn't it? Aren't you scapegoating? At least if that's the approach you're just saying "make the guys at the top responsible", which I think is sort of logical, although I don't think that way, I get it.

Here's what I don't like and the MAIN reason I'd be happy if there was an ownership change: The M's seem to run the team in a "strictly business" way- ie. they make less money, they spend less money. They don't seem to want to spend more to make more. They don't seem like real "fans" of the game, they seem like fans of power and money. I'd like it if the owner was more like Arte Moreno, or even Steinbrenner. I hated Steinbrenner, but at least he was a fan of baseball. That's it though, really... I found the email to be pretty obnoxious... It's just, I mean, are we really making shit up at this point? Come on.

Well let me twist that around for you how do you know that Chuck and Howie did not tell Z to fire Wak and blame the whole Griffey incident on him? You can't. This is getting old and its very suspicious how all these managers keep getting fired. Like i said theres only so much a manager can do its the GMS job to provide the manager with talent. I don't blame Lou for leaving if the front office is going to be cheap id leave to.

It was also Chuck and Howies fault when Bavasi was not fired he was going to be but because all of a sudden Bavasi was winning they decided to keep Bavasi all on them for that one to they even came out and supported him.

[clarknova]

Well let me twist that around for you how do you know that Chuck and Howie did not tell Z to fire Wak and blame the whole Griffey incident on him? You can't. This is getting old and its very suspicious how all these managers keep getting fired. Like i said theres only so much a manager can do its the GMS job to provide the manager with talent. I don't blame Lou for leaving if the front office is going to be cheap id leave to.

It was also Chuck and Howies fault when Bavasi was not fired he was going to be but because all of a sudden Bavasi was winning they decided to keep Bavasi all on them for that one to they even came out and supported him.

Nateyb24,
First of all, thank you for at least engaging in this discussion. Interesting rebuttal. Allow me to retort! :)
When you jump to a conclusion and are questioned on the evidence to support that conclusion and the evidence you present is, "you don't know that it's not true", that, unfortunately is pretty weak ground to stand on. I am going off what I know to be true. The GM fires Field Managers. It's in his job description. I am willing to accept that Chuck Armstrong ordered managers to be fired, but not if the proof of that actually happening is "you don't know that it didn't happen". I don't know that Chuck Armstrong and Howard Lincoln are actually Italian plumbers that warp through the space time continuum via sewage pipes and dodge man eating plants to defeat a gigantic mutated evil princess-napping tortoise either. That doesn't make it true. You're the one that's making an assumption here, and you definitely aren't the only one, I'm asking for verification of some kind. Are you seriously trying to tell me that you believe that "Chuck and Howie" fired all those managers and the reason you believe that is because you don't know that they didn't? That's beyond slippery slope. Occam's razor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

It's really not suspicious at all that managers keep getting fired. It would be suspicious if they were winning and they kept getting fired. It begs to reason that they're getting fired. Suspicious and unexplained is why Hargrove quit in the middle of his only winning campaign. That's weird. Teams canning managers for the team under-performing is status quo dude. This is not a conspiracy. It's a lame and annoying fact of baseball.

I don't blame Lou either, but the Rays were a game away from the ALCS this year with a budget under 80 million. Ownership decides how much money the team gets to spend, but money doesn't always equate to wins (see: The Seattle Mariners, New York Mets, LA Dodgers). Smart GMs. We have one. We didn't used to. We know that.

They didn't fire Bavasi fast enough... Yeah, I'm with you on that one, but... I guess I just need more than that to drink the hateraide. It all seems like pretty weak stuff to justify all the rhetoric. That's all. I guess I just find it confusing because it doesn't make sense and requires me to take rumors as facts.

[phredmojo]

Piniella- quit (last season record: 93-69) after his repeated requests over multiple seasons to get another bat at the deadline was refused by howie and chuckie everytime (the same reason that gillick quit)
Melvin- fired, replaced by new GM (last season record: 63-99) fired by howie
Hargrove- quit, replaced by his own bench coach (in house replacement) (last season record: 45-33) was fired by howie after ichiro told him he wanted him gone, was allowed "to quit"
McLaren- fired, replaced by his own bench coach (in house replacement) (last season record: 25-47) fired by howie
Riggleman- fired, replaced by new GM (last season record: 36-54) replaced by howie
Wakamatsu- fired, replaced by AAA manager (in house replacement) (last season record: 42-70) this one was fired by chuckie alone after griffey called chuckie after he quit and told him that he would never set foot in safeco field again as along as wak was here. chuckie hired brown, placed an order for browns uniform, then him and howie called z into the office the night before wak was "fired" and handed him his pre written script and told him what to say


those are the facts.

[phredmojo]

The GM fires Field Managers. It's in his job description most cities yes, but not in NY and not in seattle since gillick left. gillick is the last GM we had that full automony and no GM will ever again have the power that gillick was given.

[clarknova]

Man, I wish you had anything to back any of that up phred, really. Not to discredit at all, but you're a well documented hater. If all of that were true, and I had anything substantial to go on, I'd be right there with you on the bandwagon. I just can't change my mind because a forum poster told me what happened. I don't make my mind up simply because someone told me to. Let me know when you're ready to give me more than that. Until then, those are NOT facts, those are rumors.

[clarknova]

and not in seattle since gillick left. gillick is the last GM we had that full automony and no GM will ever again have the power that gillick was given.

Let me guess... Someone in the organization told you that. And everyone else is forced to lie by threat of their pets being killed.

[Nateyb24]

How is anyone supposed to get evidence that Chuck and Howie are puppet masters? Its impossible when they are doing it behind the scenes. You have to go by there actions and the actions are pretty damming. If Z had the choice i bet he would have never fired Wak but he won't admit it because Chuck and Howie are breathing down his neck.

I do wish we had more passionate owners though like you said Steinbrenner (As much as i disliked him as a owner of the Yankees) atleast he went to every home Yankee game and watched his product while our owners just sit back and don't even seem to show much interest.

(7 Managerial changes in my mind something has got to be up and the GM doesn't have as much power as Chuck and Howie would like to let on. Ive never seen a team have that many changes in this amount of time.)

[clarknova]

How is anyone supposed to get evidence that Chuck and Howie are puppet masters?
Really? Wow. At least you admit that you have no evidence.


Its impossible when they are doing it behind the scenes.
How do you know that? You have nothing to base that on.

You have to go by there actions and the actions are pretty damming.
WHAT ACTIONS!?

If Z had the choice i bet he would have never fired Wak but he won't admit it because Chuck and Howie are breathing down his neck.
That is a product of your imagination.


I do wish we had more passionate owners though like you said Steinbrenner (As much as i disliked him as a owner of the Yankees) atleast he went to every home Yankee game and watched his product while our owners just sit back and don't even seem to show much interest.

George Steinbrenner, in an 8 year span (same as the distance between Lou Piniella and today) fired 12 managers in the late 70's to late 80's. Sometimes bringing back and rehiring managers he fired. He did it defiantly and shamelessly.


(7 Managerial changes in my mind something has got to be up and the GM doesn't have as much power as Chuck and Howie would like to let on.


Ive never seen a team have that many changes in this amount of time.)

Have you looked? I have. It's hardly unprecedented (the Royals have had one less manager since 02', The Mets had 8 managers in 9 years in the late 80' to early 90's, The Marlins have had 7 since 2001, Reds = 6 since 2000 and 12 since 1988, The Angels switched managers 9 times in 7 years from 1989 to 1996 etc.). Besides, a number of these guys were in house hires that were there to close out the year and maybe more and then they were let go when and BECAUSE the team underperfomed. It's not as if anyone wanted to fire McLaren just so that they could put Riggleman in there. Or that Ichiro DEMANDED that Hargrove be fired because he loved McLaren so much. Forget for a second that you've already decided that this is a puppetmaster conspiracy and look at the evidence that exists in reality. If high managerial turn over when the team is horrible = puppetmaster conspiracy, I'm just, wow...

For sake of argument, let's just assume that Chuckles n' How-How are really evil meddling puppetmasters (I'm imagining Skeletor and Cobra Commander high fiving... you know, now that I think of it Jack Z would make a nice oversize Destro), and what they're doing is firing managers that you yourself said do not control the talent being handed to them, SO WHAT?!

I think we just have to agree to disagree. Although, honestly, I feel as though I'm disagreeing with a fantasy.
There could be Yetis stalking the monks in the Himalayas. There is some interesting hair, footprints, and eye witness testimony to support the idea that there is a white ape-like creature that lives in the mountains there. Call me a skeptic, but I'll believe in a Yeti when you show me one.

The Mariners will win when they have enough talent to, and not before. The Braves of 1989 were in a very similar boat, the Rays of the early part of this decade, the Twins of the late part of the 90's... How did they become contenders? The same way we're doing it now. Painful futility followed by steady improvement as the talent is grown from within via smart trades and drafting, talent evaluation.

Actually, it brings up another thing I have to look into regarding what a manager does. I've been pretty harsh on them and their ability to affect wins, but one thing that keeps being brought up about Wedge is his ability to "develop young players". I guess time will tell (as it will with everything about Wedge), but I'm going to be looking into that some more.

[JosephC]

Well then, if it really comes down to just needing talent, why didn't they just let Wakamatsu finish the season? Why go through yet another manager during the 2010 disaster? Why didn't they let him finish the season and then just decide to go another direction? If it was to test out another manager, then they really do believe it's the managers fault and not the players. Then the front office is beyond stupid. If it's not that, it must be to use the managers as puppets. I only see two reasons, and I don't like either of them.

[clarknova]

Winning comes down to talent. Teams scapegoat field managers either because they're making a PR move, or they actually believe that their team was talented enough to be significantly better, but for whatever reason the manager was unable to "create" a winner. I don't buy the latter, and find the previous annoying.
Firing the field manager when the team isn't doing well or there is significant clubhouse morale issues is an industry standard. This is not an isolated situation, and does not equate to a puppetmaster conspiracy for me.
Why go through another manager? I don't know, I didn't like it either, but I'm not willing to jump to an illogical conclusion because of it. Just me.
What do you mean by "use the managers as puppets". How are they puppets? I get "fall guy" or "scapegoat", but I'm not understanding "puppet".
By "front office" are you talking about Howie, Chuck, and Jack, or who? Who is "beyond stupid" if Jack fired the Manager because the team sucked at winning?

Here's another idea: Maybe the team, for whatever reason (Griffey, Figgins etc.) was not inspired by, or felt like listening to Don Wakamatsu. Maybe he lost the clubhouse. Now, Jack can either "back his manager" and what would that do? Would the team get over it? Would they forget about the perceived disrespect to a guy that some of them idolized (Griffey)? Is that Don Wakamatsu's fault? I don't know. Was it the front offices fault that the players reacted so poorly and childishly? Uh, probably not. They had to fix it. It sucks, and I didn't agree with it, but I guess they thought that they had a team that underperformed to such a historical level, that they had to do something. I guess maybe they didn't want to go into 2011 having to change everyone's ego diapers and have every clubhouse meeting be a counseling session. I don't know? But it's another possibility beyond, "they're stupid" and "they're puppetmasters". I find it much easier to believe. I still don't like it, I still don't agree with the move, but I don't agree that it makes Jack retarded or makes Chuck and Howie meddling demons either. That's a little far fetched for me.

[JosephC]

I get "fall guy" or "scapegoat", but I'm not understanding "puppet".
A picture explains 1000 words.
http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/1584/kermitthefrog.jpg


Maybe the team, for whatever reason (Griffey, Figgins etc.) was not inspired by, or felt like listening to Don Wakamatsu. Maybe he lost the clubhouse.
Then does that mean that both Waka and Daren Brown both lost the clubhouse? Because looking at the records, .380 % for Daren Brown, and .375 % for Waka. Let's be honest, that isn't a heck of a lot different. So even if Z, C or H believed it was Waka, they were proven wrong. They should have seen that the bats were not connecting with the ball, and it wasn't because of a Figgins outbreak or a Griffey roadtrip. I don't want to believe that our front office is stupid ehough to believe that removing Wakamatsu was really going to make them a winning team. If they did, all I can say is that is a really bad sign. I think that is the place where most of us jump on board and say that the front office was using that as a "reason" for fans to believe that they are trying to make a change for the better. It really didn't work.


Was it the front offices fault that the players reacted so poorly and childishly?
That is a hard question to answer. I don't know. I personally believe that Griffey was a must sign for Z, and he didn't have much of a choice. If that is so, yes, part of the blame needs to go to the front office.

I guess none of us will ever know the truth about this, but it does bring up some interesting points on both sides of the argument.

[Nateyb24]

JosephC
Well then, if it really comes down to just needing talent, why didn't they just let Wakamatsu finish the season? Why go through yet another manager during the 2010 disaster? Why didn't they let him finish the season and then just decide to go another direction? If it was to test out another manager, then they really do believe it's the managers fault and not the players. Then the front office is beyond stupid. If it's not that, it must be to use the managers as puppets. I only see two reasons, and I don't like either of them.

Wak was the scape goat. Im sure hes like all the other managers who were hired and thought "WTH im just the manager it isn't my fault the gm is so poor at getting talent".

Hargrove quit because he had the same problem as pinella they didn't want to spend to get talent or so ive heard is the reason i kind of believe it a manager just doesn't quit all of a sudden when hes having success.

Its not Waks fault the team decided to sign Griffey who shouldve really ran off into the sunset last year his numbers weren't that great. Howie and Chuck shouldve told Griffey not Wak Griffey has the BFR with Howie and Chuck not Wak. Also there were reports from Angel players who said they knew Figgins acted like the game revolved around him just seems like the front office does a poor job of investagating players then just fire someone to fire someone.

[clarknova]

A picture explains 1000 words.

Yeah, that actually does say a lot...

Sigh. I can't argue against myself. I can't count the number of times I've said that I didn't like that move, I thought replacing Wak did nothing to make the team better blah blah blah. I presented that other possible scenario because I read that there were only two other ones, and didn't buy either. I don't agree that Wak should have been fired, but I think there might be other justifications the front office had, RIGHT OR WRONG, other than Wak is literally an animatronic puppet who is designed to take the fall for failure (still don't get that metaphor :)), or that the front office is pure evil.

I don't think the front office is stupid enough to think that replacing Wakamatsu will make a winner. I really don't think it was about that. I think the justification was sort of like (NOTE: I DON'T AGREE WITH THE MOVE), "we have a bunch of guys on the team that have lost faith in the manager. The team does not respect him, for whatever reason, right or wrong, to the point that they are publicly defying and insulting him and actually physically trying to attack him, coming out of the worst year in team history, do we want him in charge of the talent on the field?" So, I think it was wrong, I don't think it helps, but I don't think it means: A. That the front office is evil, stupid, or thinks we're stupid, or B. that Eric Wedge sucks.
It's an annoying fact of Major League Baseball.
That's the difference.

Daren Brown was a seat filler. Like Riggleman. Is it possible that managers get fired for different reasons? As far as their respective winning percentages, you really think you need to convince ME that a manager has almost no effect on a team winning? I should have that tattooed across my chest at this point. I've been screaming that from the (metaphor Joseph, figurative!) rooftops!

As far as the front office being responsible for childish behavior by grown ups. We'll have to agree to disagree on that as well.

I'm repeating myself again.

To Nateyb:


Wak was the scape goat.
I Agree.

Im sure hes like all the other managers who were hired and thought "WTH im just the manager it isn't my fault the gm is so poor at getting talent"
This made me laugh. :)

Hargrove quit because he had the same problem as pinella they didn't want to spend to get talent or so ive heard is the reason i kind of believe it a manager just doesn't quit all of a sudden when hes having success.

Why would he quit when his team was pushing for first place to get a team that could compete for first place? When Lou did that the team finished 3rd. I'd actually buy phred's story about Ichiro demanding his firing over that, and I don't buy that at all.

Its not Waks fault the team decided to sign Griffey who shouldve really ran off into the sunset last year his numbers weren't that great.
Agree completely.

Also there were reports from Angel players who said they knew Figgins acted like the game revolved around him just seems like the front office does a poor job of investagating players then just fire someone to fire someone.
I heard that too, but only after the fight in the dugout. It seemed to me that all the sudden guys were willing to say what they really thought of him. I also agree with you that the front office seems to do a poor job of investigation. I think Lueke was a hard lesson that cost at least one guy his job, and you're right, Figgins may also be an effect of this. It may well be a situation where too much emphasis is put on the raw numbers. Hopefully they figured it out!

I don't know though dudes, I see a lot of defending some pretty ugly behavior and then blaming some other behavior on others. I'm all about people taking responsibility for their own actions. Wak is Jacks bad. Plain and simple. That's his mess. So is Figgins. I think Jack is a really smart guy who got really, really unlucky- but that's the way it goes. Just like the manager, Jacks job is on the line if the team doesn't win, and he can only hope they'll do as well as they're supposed to, but they're human and sometimes they don't.

[clarknova]

http://www.q13fox.com/videobeta/e561bcbd-7d09-4396-aefc-284d960442ae/Sports/Tacoma-News-Tribune-s-Ryan-Divish-Talks-About-Eric-Wedge-M-s-Hire

The above link is to a Q It Up Sports interview with Ryan Divish (Tacoma News Tribune). I hate Q It Up Sports, but I like Divish- he's cynical and honest (IMO). I posted this because his take on the Wedge hiring I thought was great and his take on the Wak firing, and front office is pretty close to exactly what I've been saying for months. The one thing I would disagree with him on is the comment on Jack's personnel moves. I'd say if you take 2010 with 2009 I'd give him a C+. That's just me though. Total opinion.

[Nateyb24]

http://www.q13fox.com/videobeta/e561bcbd-7d09-4396-aefc-284d960442ae/Sports/Tacoma-News-Tribune-s-Ryan-Divish-Talks-About-Eric-Wedge-M-s-Hire

The above link is to a Q It Up Sports interview with Ryan Divish (Tacoma News Tribune). I hate Q It Up Sports, but I like Divish- he's cynical and honest (IMO). I posted this because his take on the Wedge hiring I thought was great and his take on the Wak firing, and front office is pretty close to exactly what I've been saying for months. The one thing I would disagree with him on is the comment on Jack's personnel moves. I'd say if you take 2010 with 2009 I'd give him a C+. That's just me though. Total opinion.

Thats excactly why they shouldve never kept him when they did that it was desperation mode in his mind and he traded away Shin Shoo Choo and Adam Jones 2 players we could really use right now he also signed Silva to that ridiculous contract in his last year. Bedard has been pretty much garbage for us. Good video thanks for sharing but i still don't trust Chuck and Howie until they stop getting rid of managers.

[clarknova]

Thats excactly why they shouldve never kept him when they did that it was desperation mode in his mind and he traded away Shin Shoo Choo and Adam Jones 2 players we could really use right now he also signed Silva to that ridiculous contract in his last year. Bedard has been pretty much garbage for us. Good video thanks for sharing but i still don't trust Chuck and Howie until they stop getting rid of managers.

Yeah, I don't know many people that think Bill Bavasi was a good GM.
As far as trusting Chuck and Howie... Fair enough, and I'll stop trusting them once I have any verification at all in any way that they are getting rid of managers and not the GM :).
Cheers Nateyb