Ichiro overrated?

[clarknova]

This is a subject that I've heard brought up and squabbled over many times (especially at the end of losing seasons), and as I just wrote a scathing email to "Mitch in the Morning" on KJR 950 radio because I was driving and couldn't call into the show so I just sat in my car clutching my phone and scowling at the whiny drivel that was coming out of my car's speakers, I thought I'd see where everyone else is on the topic.
Here's where Mitch stands on the issue (who, just so it's out there, I can barely stand because he's a whiny little boob and is wrong a lot. He's more than once tried comparing steroid use in athletes to drugs and alcohol used by musicians, which is just so, so dumb):
He, his co-host, and all the callers but one I heard (who was hung up on) think Ichiro is totally overrated. They say that comparing him to the top 5 hitters in history (like Cobb, Rose, and Dimaggio) is totally ridiculous. They then compared him to Derek Jeter and basically claimed that Jeter is underrated. Just effusing praise for Jeter's leadership skills, his hard nosed game, and willingness to do whatever it takes for his team to win. They went off on Ichiro's ability to hit home runs in batting practice, and criticized him for not doing so in game situations. They just shredded him.

Here's where I stand on this issue:
In order to call anything "overrated" you must first take that thing/person in context. For example, I could say Justin Bieber is overrated because his appeal as a musician is to an audience of squealing preadolescent girls. In other words, if he was a burn victim, he would not be famous- that would be my argument as to why, as a musician- he's overrated.

Ichiro is, and always has been a lead off hitter. The job of a lead off hitter is to get on base so that other hitters, who (should) take a different approach to hitting based on their particular skill set, can drive them in. Is he one of the best power hitters of all time? NO! Should he be compared to them? I don't know, should Ricky Henderson be compared to Ted Williams in regard to his "rating"? When people say he's "one of the best hitters of all time" and the counter point is to compare stats and on base percentage... I just shudder. If you think Ichiro Suzuki can't get hits as well as, or better than almost any hitter in the history of baseball, you're beyond help. He should be compared to similar hitters: Wade Boggs, George Sisler, Ty Cobb, Ricky Henderson, Vince Coleman, Kenny Lofton, and yes even Derek Jeter. Putting his career slugging percentage up against Babe Ruth as evidence that he's overrated is dumb.
The home run issue: This one is one of my favorites. I understand that we need power, but ragging on Ichiro for not becoming a different kind of hitter than he has been in 20 years is also not an intelligent argument. He, himself has stated before, that yeah, maybe he could hit 30 home runs if he wanted to, but he'd also strike out 150 times a year and have a batting average of .225. Then everyone would tear him up for that. Beyond that, it's batting practice! Michael Saunders looks like Hank Aaron in batting practice. They're not getting 94 mph sinkers, followed by a 79 mph curve. They're hitting "watermelons" delivered directly into their wheel house. Is he less valuable on a team that doesn't have anyone to drive him in? Well, yeah! But, he is what he's always been, and he won the MVP in 2001 doing basically everything he's doing this year. The only difference is he played on a winner. Everyone went off about how awesome he was then, and now that he's on a losing team everyone wants his head on a stick? It's a perfect example of how fickle sports is, and how they retardedly rate players based on the team around them (see: Hernandez, Felix)
The leadership issue: Has he ever been a clubhouse leader? How is it reasonable to demand that he become something he's not because he's the highest profile player on a crappy team, and not only that... How does that add to an argument that he's overrated?! If it was printed ANYWHERE that he was a great leader in the clubhouse, then ok, yeah, that would probably be overrating him. You can say that he doesn't possess great leadership skills, but not that he's an overrated leader.

On the salary issue: $18 million dollars a year is a TON of money to pay a singles hitting lead off hitter who doesn't walk much. It just is. I can totally understand the argument that he's "overpaid", but his contract and his legacy/hitting ability are NOT the same thing. People confuse the two. The thing is that he is paid more than almost all power hitting, high RBI, High SLG%, High HR total hitters in all of baseball outside of the Yankees. He got 2 million more than Albert Pujols this year, and 3 more than Matt Holliday. I'm only comparing him to veteran hitters signed to long term contracts as comparing his wages to Joey Votto would be ridiculous. He gets 2 million less than Miguel Cabrera. So, I get that argument. At this point, would I rather have Ichiro at $18 million per or Miguel Cabrera at $20 million? Sorry, I love the guy, but I'd take Cabrera in a heartbeat. he would make our team better than Ichiro does because of it's current talent/skill set level.

Overpaid and overrated are not the same thing.

Thoughts?

[Nateyb24]

I wouldn't take 950 AM KJR to seriously i laugh at them because there sports radio show in the morning is a joke they were mocking Hasselbeck a week before the first NFL sunday games started. Cannot stand these guys i like 710 AM way better.

Jeter is overrated do you guys think he would get hits on any team but the Yankees? That lineup makes him alot better mean while Ichiro is getting his hits with no protection whatsoever.

They got really whiney when Butler canceled his session on there show they started whining about it lol.

[clarknova]

I wouldn't take 950 AM KJR to seriously i laugh at them because there sports radio show in the morning is a joke they were mocking Hasselbeck a week before the first NFL sunday games started. Cannot stand these guys i like 710 AM way better.

Jeter is overrated do you guys think he would get hits on any team but the Yankees? That lineup makes him alot better mean while Ichiro is getting his hits with no protection whatsoever.

They got really whiney when Butler canceled his session on there show they started whining about it lol.

So you heard it too! Dude, I definitely do not take Bitch in the Morning "seriously", but when I've got 2 sports news radio stations and I don't want to sit through the commercials, or when they're talking about golf, I switch back and forth. They tend to annoy me, and this morning was no exception. They are not the only ones out there claiming Ichiro is overrated. I've been hearing that for YEARS. Since Rob Dibble had to run around Time Square in a Speedo and get a tattoo on his ass for underrating Ichiro:
http://espn.go.com/talent/danpatrick...4/1259399.html

Man, I hate Derek Jeter. I have a hard time being objective about his stats because he's such a douche. My computer background for months was him crying on the ground after he broke his thumb sliding into third base a few years ago.

[Old but Slow]

When a team is as poor as the current team, people are looking to place blame. That they choose to demonize our most productive position player is beyond belief. His main strength is as a singles hitter, and there is nobody better. He steals bases, which puts pressure on opposing pitchers, and he plays great defense. He does not walk enough, mainly because he gets so many hits off pitches that are out of the strike zone. He is a lock for the Hall of Fame. How many other players can you say that about?

It galls me a bit to hear someone say that he does not compare with Pete Rose. Rose could hit. But, he was a poor defensive player and could not run or throw. And, beyond that, he was the consummate hot dog. One of the first times I saw him play, he was young and playing left field. It was on TV, but they used fewer close up shots, so it was easy to see that he approached a routine fly ball by running too slow so that he could make an easy catch look hard. And that phony running to first base when he had a base-on-balls, was not hustle, it was showmanship. I was definitely turned off on him.

Criticizing Ichiro because he does not hit for power is like knocking Babe Ruth (arbitrary power hitter) for not stealing 30 bases a year.

Maybe those critics should contact a few major league managers and ask if they would like to have had Ichiro for the last 10 years.

[phredmojo]

not only is he over rated, he is greatly over rated by mariner fans. in his best day he could never hold the jocks of cobb, rose, dimagio etc. as a leadoff hitter his obp sucks, especially considering his avg. yeah he steals 30 sb's a year, too bad most of them are in meaningless situations and are just for stat padding. there is no excuse for him stealing less then 50-70 sb each and every year. and for the stat heads that claim that his SB% would go down if he ran more i say BS. he refuses to use his power (no not just HR power). there is no excuse for small # of doubles he hits each year. no excuse for less then 45-50 combined doubles and tripples each year with his speed and power. he is a primadona and not a team player, all he cares about is his own records and not the teams success. he's a good player and will make the HOF but he is not a great player. would every team take him? yes, but none of them, not even the yankees would pay him anywhere close to 18 million a year, nor would any other team allow him to get away with what we do because yamuchi is the owner. personally i'm gonna be very happy the day ichiro retires and is off my team for good.

[Nateyb24]

not only is he over rated, he is greatly over rated by mariner fans. in his best day he could never hold the jocks of cobb, rose, dimagio etc. as a leadoff hitter his obp sucks, especially considering his avg. yeah he steals 30 sb's a year, too bad most of them are in meaningless situations and are just for stat padding. there is no excuse for him stealing less then 50-70 sb each and every year. and for the stat heads that claim that his SB% would go down if he ran more i say BS. he refuses to use his power (no not just HR power). there is no excuse for small # of doubles he hits each year. no excuse for less then 45-50 combined doubles and tripples each year with his speed and power. he is a primadona and not a team player, all he cares about is his own records and not the teams success. he's a good player and will make the HOF but he is not a great player. would every team take him? yes, but none of them, not even the yankees would pay him anywhere close to 18 million a year, nor would any other team allow him to get away with what we do because yamuchi is the owner. personally i'm gonna be very happy the day ichiro retires and is off my team for good.

Umm how is Ichiro over-rated?? Also Why can't he be named with Pete Rose?? Ichiro is tied with him for 10 consecutive seasons of 200+ hits. Hes even doing this left handed he is a natural righty but his dad taught him to hit from the left. While i think he can hit for power hes doing what a lead off hitter should do and thats get on base. His OBP is .350+ each season although i do agree he needs to walk more but its usally those pitches he shouldn't be swinging at that he gets his base hits off of. If he was on a lineup with power people would not criticize Ichiro because they would have the bats to knock him in with but as it stands hes on the most pathetic lineup ever and hes still hitting.

[phredmojo]

simple reason why he can't be compared to rose. rose did whatever it took to help his team win, ichiro doesn't

[JosephC]

What more could ichiro do to help the team win?

[clarknova]

simple reason why he can't be compared to rose. rose did whatever it took to help his team win, ichiro doesn't

Yeah, Pete Rose is synonymous with selflessness!

not only is he over rated, he is greatly over rated by mariner fans. in his best day he could never hold the jocks of cobb, rose, dimagio etc. as a leadoff hitter his obp sucks, especially considering his avg. yeah he steals 30 sb's a year, too bad most of them are in meaningless situations and are just for stat padding. there is no excuse for him stealing less then 50-70 sb each and every year. and for the stat heads that claim that his SB% would go down if he ran more i say BS. he refuses to use his power (no not just HR power). there is no excuse for small # of doubles he hits each year. no excuse for less then 45-50 combined doubles and tripples each year with his speed and power. he is a primadona and not a team player, all he cares about is his own records and not the teams success. he's a good player and will make the HOF but he is not a great player. would every team take him? yes, but none of them, not even the yankees would pay him anywhere close to 18 million a year, nor would any other team allow him to get away with what we do because yamuchi is the owner. personally i'm gonna be very happy the day ichiro retires and is off my team for good.

YES! I'm glad that this wasn't a thread of Ichiro homerism, I wanted to get some of the other side to debate this issue because it's a permeating topic that doesn't seem to go away, and I don't think it will anytime soon. AND, I must say, I'm very surprised to see that it's Phred with the negative counter point! You're usually so "puppy dogs and lollipops". Just kidding dude. I like your post because it pretty well covers all of the classic anti-Ichiro sentiment. But, as I must... Allow me to RETORT!

As far as "holding the jocks" of Cobb, Rose, and Dimaggio... Yeah, I don't think you actually know what you're talking about. Ty Cobb is almost in-arguably the greatest hitter of all time. There was a situation when Babe Ruth was a rising star and really beginning the home run craze when a jealous and nasty Cobb stated that anyone could hit home runs and to prove it he declared he was going to swing for the fences. The next game he went 6 for 6 with 3 homers, and hit 2 more the next day. He was an amazing baseball player (along with being a horrible human being, but that's irrelevant to the discussion). If Ichiro has "no excuse" for not hitting for power, what was Cobb's? Where are all the people calling out Cobb for not hitting home runs all over the place? Where are all the people criticizing Cobb for not being the best hitter of all time because of his low power numbers? There are different types of hitters. You can't compare Ichiro to Joe Dimaggio, he wasn't a lead off hitter and different things are expected of lead off hitters (like Old but Slow said, you might as well compare him to Babe Ruth). Ichiro doesn't hit for power and never has with regularity. He does what he does best, and is really, really good at it. You're assigning abilities to him and then criticizing him for not meeting a standard that you arbitrarily set. That's something that there's no excuse for. He should steal 70 bases and if he doesn't (56 is his highest single season total in 18 seasons of professional baseball) he's a failure because you think he can do better? Pfft. That's weak. All of your criticisms are based on criteria that you've invented. Has he ever done any of the things that he has "no excuse" for not doing? If not, then how on earth do you know he can? Speculation? You're going to judge his performance against speculation, and declare him overrated when he fails to meet some made up standard? Judge him on what he is, not what he's never been.

Which brings me to the facts.
Ichiro Suzuki has a higher career batting average (by 30 points), on base percentage, and even slugging percentage than Pete Rose. Pete Rose may have hit more doubles (and slightly more average home runs), but he also stole an average of about 1/4 the bases Ichiro does. So, let me ask you, what is the difference between a single and a stolen base and a double? Not a damn thing, except that it produces a higher slugging percentage.... Of which Ichiro STILL beats Pete. So, the walk issue. What is the difference, toward scoring a run, between a walk and an infield single? NOTHING! Ichiro Suzuki does a better job of putting his team in a position to score runs than Pete Rose did. That is not questionable. It is supported by facts. The only reason Pete Rose scored more runs than Ichiro is because he played on the Big Red Machine and Ichiro plays for the Seattle Mariners.

Ichiro Suzuiki's on base percentage being low for a lead off hitter is a statement not based in fact. He has annually one of the highest in baseball for a lead off hitter. Career wise there are really only a couple lead off hitters that got on base better than Ichiro. Ty Cobb and Rickey Henderson being among them (also... Derek Jeter! BLEGCH!) and also considered probably the top 2-3 lead off hitters of ALL TIME (Cobb and Henderson). Ichiro has a higher career slugging percentage, batting average AND on base percentage than Kenny Lofton, and Lou Brock. So, if we're comparing Ichiro Suzuki all time to the best and most successful lead off hitters he's one of the best EVER, but the knock on him is that he isn't what he's not and never has been? Yeah, I just don't buy that. I prefer facts- they make much more sense than make believe (baseless opinions).

As far as him being a prima donna only concerned with his own stats and not the teams success... And you're putting him up against Ty Cobb and Pete Rose? Dude, Ichiro would beat them in a "who's the least self obsessed" contest ANY day. One of his strengths has NEVER been clubhouse leadership. Just like hitting 30 home runs, it's not something he does.

All that being said, I agree that he is overpaid, but that is NOT the same thing as overrated.

[Nateyb24]

simple reason why he can't be compared to rose. rose did whatever it took to help his team win, ichiro doesn't

Wait so its his fault hes been doing everything the same way since day one? Which is hit singles and actually live up to his contract unlike many free agents we have signed in the years past. Also how do you know Ichiro has this bad attitude?? Sure hes not a leader but hes never came off as one either.